Men’s Mental Health and Relationships
Show Notes
Simon Rinne is a licensed social worker and shared his personal journey of dealing with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, overcoming alcohol misuse, and his experience finding the right therapists, leading to his commitment to men's mental health.
Key takeaways from the episode:
How the home environment and societal pressures impact men's mental health. We talk about how these pressures can be mitigated.
Simon’s concept to challenge societal norms and embrace a fuller, more emotionally expressive definition of masculinity.
Why is finding the right therapist so important and how can it significantly enhance the effectiveness of the therapy?
Simon's holistic approach to therapy involves blended lifestyle modifications, professional help, and supportive relationships.
How partners can play a supportive role in the journey of men’s mental health.
Simon is a husband and father, mental health advocate and social worker. As the Founder of Mindful Men, he’s dedicated to supporting men with mental illness and disability. Simon lived with OCD, Depression, Anxiety, and Burnout for 30 years, struggling in silence, using alcohol to feel "normal." At 28 Simon began the journey of healing and hopes to inspire others to believe that they can turn their pain into purpose, and move from surviving to thriving.
Noteworthy quotes from this episode:
[07:15] "I expected to walk into the doctor and the psych and they heal me after one session and that would be it. They give me a magic pill and that would be it. Didn't happen. Um, I didn't really discover that you need to do the work on yourself and really start changing the way you look at yourself until I burned out.”
[35:34] "I think we need to start normalizing mental health in the same way that we normalize our physical health. Our minds are important part of it because the mind is what gets everything going. So if our mind's cluttered or, fuzzy or depressed or anything like that there's there's ways that we can fix that."
Connect with Simon
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2050441875316594/ (free Facebook community for men)
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mindful.men.aus
IG: https://www.instagram.com/mindful.men.aus/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/mindful.men.aus
Connect with Paige Bond
Instagram: @paigebondcoaching
Facebook: @paigebondcoaching
TikTok: @paigebondcoaching
Website: https://paigebond.com
Paige Bond hosts the Stubborn Love podcast, is a Licensed Marriage Therapist, and a Polyamory Relationship Coach. Her mission is to help people-pleasing millennials navigate non-monogamy so they can tame their jealousy and love with ease. Her own journey from feeling lonely, insecure, and jealous to feeling empowered and reassured is what fuels her passion to help other people-pleasers to conquer jealousy and embrace love.
Free Jealousy Workbook:
http://www.paigebond.com/calm-the-chaos-jealousy-workbook-download
Free People Pleasing Workbook:
https://www.paigebond.com/people-pleasing-workbook
Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.
Mental Health Resources: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.
Intro music by Coma-Media on pixabay.com
Transcript
(generated by AI - please excuse errors)
[00:01:00] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Welcome back to another episode of Stubborn Love. I'm your host, Paige Bond, and today we are joined by Simon, who is a husband, father, mental health advocate, and social worker from the land down under, joining me very early in the morning. Simon is the founder of Mindful Men and is dedicated to supporting men with mental illness and disability.
[00:01:26] I'm going to let him talk about his story and how he helps men all across the globe. So, Simon, thank you so much for being here today. Can you introduce yourself and tell listeners about your journey?
[00:01:39] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah, Paige, thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:40] Really excited to be here. Um, it is early, but I'm an early riser, so it's all good, um, from my end. For anyone who's not sure about the accent, I am in Australia. Um, live on the east coast of Australia in a place called the Sunshine Coast. So we have beautiful beaches, hinterland, 30 minutes and you'll be in the bush as well.
[00:01:57] So it's got a bit of everything and I live there with my family. So I'm a husband and father. I've got two little ones, a seven year old and a four year old. And yeah, I, I guess dedicate my life these days to men's mental health and I'm really passionate about that, given my own story of mental health and the struggles that I've had and I guess the relationship with myself that I've had over those years and how I guess burnout in 2020 helped me to start re examining this relationship and really take off the mask of mental illness, you could say, and start living more authentically and true to myself and being, I guess, just more me, the version of me that I've always wanted to live, but I hid away from, I guess, because of all the pressures that so many guys experience living with mental health conditions as well.
[00:02:48] So that's me in a very quick snapshot, but let's dive into it. You know, there's 40 years to unpack. I'm happy to go wherever you feel like we should start.
[00:03:00] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Yeah, I, I guess I want to start with why do you think it is that men are kind of put in a position where they believe that they have to put on this mask to cover up whatever mental illness they have or whatever tough emotions they're going through?
[00:03:19] Like, where do you think that even starts?
[00:03:22] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah, I love this question because I'm talking about it a lot at the moment. So to give context as a social worker, we love context. So I was born in the eighties and I grew up in the eighties, nineties and noughties in a place called Adelaide. the Sunshine Coast where I live.
[00:03:35] It's in South Australia. And that area is, is. known for its lower socioeconomic, um, I guess, conditions. There's a lot of people who may be single parent households. There's a lot of people working in, in services type roles or trade roles, a lot of unemployment, a lot of drugs, a lot of crime, all that type of stuff.
[00:03:55] And so. For me, it felt like a very unsafe place to be, even though it was all I knew. I never felt totally safe in that environment. And being in the eighties and nineties particular, there was no internet, there was no social media. We grew up in a way that was, I guess, influenced by the people around us.
[00:04:13] So I had three brothers in the household plus dad, dad. So a very I guess hyper masculine or alpha, alpha male household because we're all sports players as well, we're all football players. Um, this was reinforced in the schoolyard as well, so even the teachers, your friends, they're, they're all following this mantra of, you know, boys need to be tough and be strong and we, we suck it up and we move on and we, we carry on regardless of all, any adversity that we're coming across.
[00:04:41] And then I guess it's also reinforced by the things that we watched on TV. So TV was the go to, a little bit of radio as well, but being in a household with older brothers, whatever's on the TV was usually dictated by my older brothers. And so think of movies like The Terminator and Die Hard and Rambo, all these really hyper masculine, you know, uh, movies where the hero would, you know, walk through walls of fire or get shot or get stabbed with the blade.
[00:05:07] But still come out triumphant. And so all these influences taught a lot of boys and men today, and this includes the clients that come into my therapy clinic, it taught them to, to suck it up, to bottle everything down because nobody wants to hear your sob story as a guy, particularly in those eras and mental health wasn't a discussion that was had.
[00:05:30] It wasn't even in the vocabulary. You'd go to school. You wouldn't learn about mental health. You'd learn about physical health, biology and all that type of stuff, but not around mental health. And so At 8 years old, I developed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which remained undiagnosed until I was 28 years old.
[00:05:47] But even as I was going through this internal pain, I had no way to express, I didn't have the words, and I didn't have the environment that condoned or allowed me to talk about things. And so, A lot of guys fall into this trap and that's what I'm seeing in my therapy clinic and it took me 20 years to open up.
[00:06:04] A lot of encouragement from my now wife to go and seek help. It took her about two years to crack the nut that is my head and go and seek help. But during that 20 years period, I did what everyone else did. I sucked it up, I buried it deep. When I was around 14 or so, 15, discovered alcohol. Initially that was fun, it was partying but What I've since come to realize is a lot of my alcohol misuse, and I used to drink a lot, came from wanting to slow my brain down.
[00:06:35] So an OCD brain runs really fast, it never really stops, and so alcohol was a way for me to escape. The, uh, my own brain really and quiet and everything down to feel normal. Um, thankfully, you know, I turned 40 last year and got sober. So I've been, I haven't had alcohol since my 40th birthday last year. But all of these things, depression came along for the ride.
[00:06:57] Generalized anxiety came along for the ride. And a lot of it was just all inside my brain. And I felt a lot of relief at 28 to, to finally say to a doctor, I think I've got a mental health condition. Can somebody help me and get a referral to a psychologist? But then I did what a lot of other, a lot of people do.
[00:07:15] And a lot of guys do. I expected the magic one response. I expected to walk into the doctor and the psych and they heal me after one session and that would be it. They give me a magic pill and that would be it. Didn't happen. Um, I didn't really discover that you need to do the work on yourself and really start changing the way you look at yourself until I burned out. So in 2020 was the burnout story where my OCD, depression, anxiety was still rampant.
[00:07:41] Um, I was working in a high pressure job. So very much of a conveyor belt, white collar job, the work never finished. And there was a lot of pressure. I was also studying my masters of social work and we had two kids under three. So all of that was happening. And then this thing came called COVID came along and we all got locked down.
[00:07:59] So I. I thought I was doing really well. I loved working from home because I'm a bit of an introvert, but then what I found is that all of those things just caught up with me and I've burnt out. And, and this is where I discovered mindfulness and the need to share my story, and this is exactly when I started sharing my story to people more than my wife, more than my GP, more than my therapist.
[00:08:20] And I felt great about it and it felt good. It felt good that I was. felt like I was finally healing. I was actually doing something proactive around my mental health, but it's also inspiring other guys to come forward and say, you know what, I've been struggling too. I've been feeling all these feelings for a long time, or I've been drinking too much or, you know, for some of the guys that are in my networks, they've been doing too much drugs or other addictive type of things.
[00:08:45] And so it just felt so nice to finally share it and go against that. that trend of, of men sucking it up and not talking about it. And it was really important for me to do that as well. As a, as a dad to a young boy who my wife often says is the splitting image of me. And I'm like, no, I don't want him to go through three decades of internal pain.
[00:09:07] I want him to recognize that his dad talks about this stuff so that, if he does experience mental health challenges that he can have that courage to, to speak up as well, or even come to speak to me and, and, and share what's going on. He's, he still goes to mom for a lot of his stuff, but hopefully one day he recognized what I'm doing and can feel confident to come to me as his dad and talk about these really challenging things for guys to talk about.
[00:09:34] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: I could listen to you all day talking about men's mental health. This is amazing. I want to ask a really pointed question. How you think that you'll be raising your children ,differently with this aspect of including mental health awareness and normalizing, you know, sharing feelings. Um, how you think you'll be raising your children differently than the environment you grew up in?
[00:10:02] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah, this is a very difficult question and often talk about this with the guys that I work with in therapy as well is growing up, I knew I didn't want to live in that kind of environment and even there was a period of time where mom and dad separated at 13. So this is probably just before the alcohol story and just around the same time that my OCD went through the roof and I even had things like suicidal ideation as well for the first time.
[00:10:28] And growing up and I knew I wanted to have a family growing up and I was one of those guys that kind of fell into long term relationships after long term relationships. I was yearning for a close, safe, loving relationship where I could be seen as me and I wouldn't have to change for anybody, but that didn't happen.
[00:10:46] My first few relationships were all about Me trying to fit into their box of what an ideal partner was. And I'm just lucky that I did find my, my now wife, who was the first person to really just accept me for who I was, but also challenged me to get better. She knew that there was something not quite right.
[00:11:03] And she worked with me, not against me to, to get better, not to fix fit in her box, but just to open the lid to my own box. And so I knew I wanted a family. And then I finally found that right partner. And then when we had kids, some of those early innate behaviors came back, you know, as a young boy growing up in the eighties and nineties, for example, discipline, you know, we got smacked back then.
[00:11:26] And I remember when my son was about two, I, I lost my cool and I snapped, I smacked him on the top of his hand and I felt terrible. And I have, I still feel terrible ever since that day was the only time I've ever done it. And, but it's, it's, I guess, a reflection of, we only know how to parent from essentially from the parents that we had.
[00:11:46] And for me, it laid dormant. I had no idea how to be a parent. I'd never been around little kids since I was a little kid, whereas my wife had been around a lot of little kids through her extended family, a lot of cousins and stuff like that. So I kind of fell into that trap of doing or being reminded of the person I didn't want to be.
[00:12:04] From that moment when I became a father and parenting is hard. I've, I've learned that parenting is hard. And I talk about this a lot with the guys that I work with who do similar things. They're like, Ooh, I accidentally smacked him. I don't want to do that. I'm not that dad that was so 1990 or 1980 or 1970 or whatever.
[00:12:20] And I say, we, we get it wrong as parents. And, but the good thing is that we've recognized we did something like that. And we've reflected on the way we were parented, and we want to change. And so it's about that, that recognition. It's about that self critical reflection and recognizing that we need to change and then actually changing it as well.
[00:12:39] So doing things differently. So now I've never smacked ever since it's not something that I want to do. It's not something, and it's not a way of parenting that I want to be. So there's that element, but there's also the element of how do you teach your children in a different way? So I like to, to lead by example.
[00:12:57] And so if I'm crying, I don't hide away in a closet. I'm on the couch crying and I'll let the kids come up to me. And if they say, daddy, what's wrong, I'll share what's wrong, providing that it's safe for them to hear that kind of content as well. Like if I'm upset, I must say, daddy's upset, you know, I'm not feeling great today or whatever, and that's fine,
[00:13:16] they can recognize it. Oh, dad's crying and he's put it to this emotion as well, which teaches them how to develop their emotional intelligence as well. They can go, okay, if I'm feeling sad, I'm allowed to cry as well. And so there's that element as well, but also I guess just wanting to be there as much as possible for my kids and wanting to say yes more than, than no compared to what my dad did and, and just being open and having open discussions in the household with my wife about different life things and not hiding certain things away, which is what I experienced as well.
[00:13:47] So. And trying to, I guess. provide an environment that's also more equal and more equal in terms of parenting roles. Like I like to be a stay at home dad as much as possible, be at the kids, you know, all their functions, their sporting events, do my share around the house as well. And not like, I guess not have this notion that, Oh, dad only goes to work and that see it and mom stays home and does all this stuff.
[00:14:10] It's about showing them that there's a new version of it, of men that are coming, are coming out in the year 2024 now. And a lot of these are driven by dads who want to do things differently. So I'm part of that bandwagon and also supporting my clients to, to recognize these things as well, so that we can bring up our kids to, you know, essentially be more emotionally intelligent, more in tune with themselves, but also in tune with the people around them as well.
[00:14:35] Um, I think that's, it's just by leading by example, primarily following that realization that things need to be different.
[00:14:42] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Mm. Beautifully said. I think you're so right there, Simon, where if we can change the way that we model how we express our own emotions and get comfortable with uncomfortable emotions, then it teaches our children like really great emotional intelligence skills.
[00:15:03] It reminds me of, I don't know if you've seen the movie Iron Claw with um, Zac Efron. And spoiler alert, if anybody is listening, sorry about that. Um, but the whole movie is about, you know, being a tough guy, holding in your emotions and being this powerful masculine person and you never see them fall.
[00:15:23] And at the end of the movie, I just started sobbing because Zac Efron's on the grass while his kids are out there playing and enjoying themselves and he starts crying and his kids finally come to him and you know, they ask, you know, what, what's going on, daddy. And he at first is, is a little bit closed up.
[00:15:43] He goes into the, Oh, you know, I'm so sorry. You're seeing me cry. You know, I shouldn't be doing that. And they have the sweetest response of, Oh, but we cry all the time, daddy. It's okay. And I was like, what a beautiful lesson that even our kids can teach us. It's kind of funny because, as adults, for some reason, we get in our mind that we're just not allowed to have emotions anymore.
[00:16:08] But when we're a parent parenting our children, we're letting them have those emotions and such. So I just find it so interesting the drastic difference and I wonder if you can maybe pinpoint in the work you've done on your own or the work that you do with the men you work with, is there something in the developmental stages that kind of turns a switch to the normalizing, Oh yeah, it's okay to have emotions versus now I have to be tough.
[00:16:38] Is it like teenage years, peer pressure, I shouldn't show emotion to, you know, my classmates or curious if you have something to say on that.
[00:16:47] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah. A lot of people talk about attachment theory in those first one to six, one to seven years and, and the different relationships you have.
[00:16:53] And I think back to my dad as well. And, and dad's still around but he's a very closed book in terms of emotional. And I remember like trying to help him around the house and and I had no idea about hand tools or anything like I didn't know what half the tools were aside from a hammer but he would say oh can you go get this this tool and and I would go and try to find the tool and then stand there and have no idea but then also be too afraid to say dad I'm not sure which tool it is because he would have a go and say don't you know what this tool is or what are you doing or you you're You're being an idiot or what, all these types of things.
[00:17:27] So from a young age, put down a lot, cause I wasn't clue enough to understand what certain tools were or, or things like that. And, and I guess it extended onto things like the sports field. And, you know, if we, we mucked around at training or at the game. Not only would the coach maybe have a go at us, but also, you know, dad would be there watching on the sidelines and might give us a clipper around the ears or something like that.
[00:17:52] So, no, you're here to practice and train and play properly. You don't mess around. And so from a very early age, a lot of, I guess. Anxiety around if I didn't know an answer to something, what was going to happen? Or if I mucked up what was going to happen, but also performance anxiety as well. If I didn't perform well enough on a sports field or at school, if I didn't get at least B's in my, in my, in my grades at school, there'd be questions asked and I'd have a lot of fear and stuff like that.
[00:18:22] So I guess this drove a lot of perfectionism in my life and trying to be the best, try to be that alpha male, try to show everyone I was super strong. When I was on the inside, I was the complete opposite. I was an absolute mess a lot of the time. Um, but again, as we're talking about before is, it's not just that it was, it's all the other influences around that are reinforcing this notion of to be, you've got to be strong or you've got to be a certain type of guy.
[00:18:46] And this really came out to me in my teenage years when mom and dad separated. There was this whole notion in my social circles around you had to, there was a man of the house and I became that man of the house because me and my little brother went with mom and my two older brothers stayed with dad.
[00:19:02] And so I became that man of the house and I felt this overwhelming need to protect and this is where my OCD really ramped up and spending hours and hours and hours each day checking locks on doors, checking windows were closed, trying to protect us from this invisible invader that never came. And so. A lot of it is driven by those, those early formative years about the experience maybe you had with a parent, because some parents are really nurturing and allow you to express those emotions.
[00:19:31] Others are really closed off, perhaps like my dad, didn't want to see your emotions. And if you did shed a, shed a tear in those kinds of environments, it was like. What are you being so soft for? Don't be such a sook, or don't be such a wuss, don't be a girl, don't be gay, all these types of things, and you get labelled all these things, and that just reinforces the need to bottle it up for a lot of guys because they didn't want to be labelled as anything other than masculine, because that's all they knew, they felt like they had to be super masculine, and then if you did show any sorts of weakness, you know, think about the schoolyard, you'd be attacked by bullies, and it would be relentless, and it would never end, um, Teachers would reinforce it as well, you know, and then there's all these, these mantras around, Oh, boys will be boys, or this is just boys being, you know, being silly and that's okay, laughing it off and all this type of stuff.
[00:20:19] And so it's just constantly reinforced by our environment. And particularly in those early years, I'm not so, as a dad now, I don't see it so much in these environments, but I guess I hear it in the stories of the clients that I work in for generations and generations. This has been the norm. Um, but a lot of guys are trying to break out of that and, and see that there are different, there is a different way of thinking.
[00:20:41] Feeling and thinking and often the first question I'll ask in a lot of my sessions is, have you ever done anything like this before? And in majority of cases for new clients, the guys are saying, no, I've never done anything like this before. And so. We strip it right back and we, we make it less intimidating and just say, it's just two guys chatting.
[00:21:00] Let's just look at it like that. And then like, okay, I can kind of deal with that. And then the nature of the way I do therapy as well also helps guys to start opening up because we take it out of the clinic. We go for a walk or go down the beach, go for a drive, grab a coffee, whatever we're doing. Just so guys can go, okay, I'm in a more of a natural environment here.
[00:21:18] There's people around. If this goes south, I can make it. I can divert down an alleyway or whatever, back to my car. Um, but yeah, it is, it is a, it is a rewarding place to work in, to unpack all that stuff that was created when we were so young and held on to for so long. I've never really looked at my life as one being full of trauma.
[00:21:39] But there's so many trauma piece and parts to my life that I'm still coming to terms with and the more and more I talk about it, the easier it gets, even on podcasts, I share the story and new snippets come to me and go, Oh, I forgot about that issue that, that caused me to think like that, or to feel like that, or to behave like that.
[00:21:55] And, and it's, it is such a relieving thing. And hopefully we're getting this message out there, um, through today and through other days and other podcasts as well, that. We can unpack all this stuff. We can talk about it. It's okay. And when you go into a therapy clinic and your therapist says, let's talk about your childhood.
[00:22:12] It's not because they're prying. It's because we're trying to uncover where it all started. Where did the psyche develop? Where did the behaviors develop? What was your context? What are the contexts throughout your life that have shaped you to be the person you are today and to feel the hurt that you're feeling today as well?
[00:22:31] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: I think you're so right. I work a lot with attachment theory and I think our environment and our close or not so close relationships like growing up really do shape how we interact with the world. Um, and I really loved how you shed some light on it. You know, therapy doesn't have to be in like a stuffy office setting and it doesn't have to be like something to be feared.
[00:22:56] It can be more casual. I myself do walk and talk therapy and I really love that because it also gets the physical aspect going, which I find is really regulating for myself and my clients. So I love that diversity there. One thing I want to go back to is you mentioned talking about expectations. You know, when you first went to like the doctor at 28.
[00:23:19] And managing expectations of how this all works, like what the process is, and you came to realize, like, you actually have to put a lot of work in. What advice or what could you say to men listening right now who are wanting to go on that journey, but giving them a dose of reality and how to set expectations about this healing journey for them?
[00:23:43] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah, it's, it's a great question because it is a lot more complex than we think it is. We think we're going to book into a therapist and that's actually half the battle is just booking or coming to the realization you even need help or need, not even necessarily need help. You need someone to talk to about something, not that you're broken, it's just that you need maybe some guidance or something like that. So that's half the battle. And I said before, it took me 20 years to get there, but really two years of actually light bulb moments going off in my head going, okay, yep. My wife's my wife's right. I do need to go speak to someone and deflecting it and making up all the excuses in the world not to go do it.
[00:24:20] But I guess it's from there, it's all about relationships and finding great relationships within that therapeutic space. And, and so the first therapist I went into, it just felt relieving to, to speak to someone. And my first few relationships were all, well, therapeutic relationships were all women, because I felt like they were more of a mothering.
[00:24:39] Nurturing kind of ear. I've, I've since come to find some really good guys working in this space as well that I prefer these days, but my first one was just getting it off the chest, just letting it all out there and then seeing what kind of strategies that they wanted to go through to maybe, you know, have that magic one moment, which never came, I was given homework, which I didn't do.
[00:25:01] I just felt like I wasn't in the space to do that. And after about six weeks, I dropped out. I'm like, okay, no. Just feel like we're going around in circles, don't really understand what's going on. Then I left it for a little while. I was still on the medications that the doctor prescribed me, but I left it for a little while.
[00:25:15] But then probably a year later, I'm like, okay, I've got to go back and do it again. But I chose someone different and, and I actually had move states. So I had to choose someone different. So I went and spoke to somebody different. But I felt like it was exactly the same as the first person.
[00:25:31] And then I thought, okay, well, maybe it's not a psychologist I need. Maybe I need a psychiatrist. And I didn't really know the difference between the two. So I went to a psychiatrist and that was the worst experience I had. It was that stereotypical old white guy with a comb over really creepy feel. I'm like, and he was probably really helpful and stuff like that, but I just didn't gel with him.
[00:25:52] I didn't connect with him. I'm like, this guy's from a different era. It's not the kind of. It didn't feel warm and and inviting as the other two psych psychologists had been. And so stopped that. And then I, I left it for a while. Then I, I, I think I went and saw a, a career, no, not a career counselor, just a counselor through my work.
[00:26:12] And that was okay for a little bit, but I dropped out again, I still in the mindset of people just waving a magic wand, and this was over a period of eight years or so. You know, trying at different, different people, different professions, same results. I wasn't working on myself.
[00:26:28] It wasn't until burnout and it just happened to be that I was doing my social work degree. And I knew what this thing was of what we have here in Australia called an accredited mental health social worker that I'm like, okay, I'm experiencing burnout. I want to go find maybe a social worker to talk to because I get the language I'm really passionate about being coming in this accredited mental health social worker and that was a real penny drop moment sitting in that room with the social workers speaking the same language.
[00:26:57] I actually did a bit of research on this one, whereas the other ones, I just rang my local office of like a mental health provider and just booked in with whoever this one. I actually, this person had worked in a public service, which is where I was working at the time. So she understood public service lingo.
[00:27:12] She was a social worker. So I understood that lingo as well. And she specialized in burnout. And so she kind of ticked three big boxes that she had the lived experience, the learned experience, and the expertise were interested to talk about this specific issue that I wanted to talk about, and it just felt like everything clicked in there, and then any of the homework she gave me, I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it.
[00:27:33] You're speaking my language. I understand this. And so I've used that blueprint ever since then. And it's interesting, even though I was diagnosed with OCD in 2012, not one therapist wanted to talk about OCD. It was always about depression, anxiety, stop drinking so much, Simon. But I used that blueprint with the social worker when I eventually said, you know what, my OCD is getting out of control again.
[00:27:55] I need to actually start dealing with this is, I guess, more of a conscious effort to do, do some homework on myself. And so I found a therapist who specialize in OCD. It took me a few clinics to find that person because most people would say, Oh yeah, we, we do OCD, but then you ring them. They're like, Oh, not really, kind of like one of these side disorders that nobody really understands. But when I finally found that one who did OCD, again, the same thing happened. I got so much out of it because they knew what they were talking about. They had some sort of lived experience through their professions and the tools that they were given were the right tools for me.
[00:28:34] And so that, that was an amazing experience as well. Now, as I design my own therapy practice as well, I'm supporting guys when they come in to really understand the, the importance of the relationship, and if they're not gelling with me to let me know, because I've got networks that I can send them out to re refer onwards so that they can get the best outcome.
[00:28:53] Cause I'd rather not sit there and take their money. Cause also I don't get anything out of it as well. If there's just rocking up just because of the sake of rocking up, it's nice for them to talk, but I want to see them grow as much as possible. And that comes from that good therapeutic relationship.
[00:29:08] Which takes time. So this has been 11 years, 12 years of this journey. And so the reality check is it might take you multiple therapists to find the right one. And I think if, if, if I can impart any wisdom, it's about researching your therapist, not just booking into the local therapist, if you've got an OCD issue, because they might not have any expertise in OCD, or maybe they don't have any expertise in men's mental health.
[00:29:33] If you want to get the best outcomes, maybe you need to find a therapist who loves. Talking about men's mental health, because they're looking at the research that applies to that, or they're doing continuing professional development around men's mental health, as opposed to all these other mental health conditions that might not be relevant to you.
[00:29:50] So it takes a while, but then if you can research who your therapist is before you go in there, you might have a better chance of the relationship sticking much earlier as well.
[00:30:02] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Thanks for shedding some light on being able to You know, have the like privilege of being able to choose who's a good fit for you.
[00:30:11] I think so many people jump into therapy and maybe they're not jiving well with the therapist, but think, well, I'm doing something wrong, so I'm just going to stick it out and keep going, but yet get nothing out of it. And You're so right. Like even as a therapist, you know, if we're not the good fit for you, we, we don't want you to stick it out for our sake.
[00:30:31] We want you to find someone who you feel like is going to be helpful for you. Yeah, so thank you so much for speaking on that. One other thing I want to go back to is you've talked about how helpful your wife has been in your own healing journey And you know really sticking by your side and not going against you being really supportive accepting you as you are What could you say for people who are partnered with men?
[00:30:57] What would you say to them to one, help them through their own process because, you know, they may be lost on how to be a good support on helping a partner with mental health issues and, and how they can be that support for men.
[00:31:13] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah. It's, I'm talking about planting seeds a lot lately and it reminds me of my wife.
[00:31:18] We still didn't use the words mental health, but I think she goes, I think you're struggling a little bit. I think you need to speak to someone and for two years I deflected. I said, no, it's not me. It's you. I'm not the issue, you're the issue, or maybe, okay, I'm recognizing, yeah, I'm drinking too much, I'm just going to put the beers down for a few weeks, and I'm going to do a few extra runs around the block and run it off, and I'll be good, I'll be all healthy and stuff like that.
[00:31:39] But she just persisted, she kept planting the seeds, and eventually, she came to a bit of a pressure point where I was just being a total arse. And she said, Simon, you need to go and get help, otherwise you're out. And I'm like, you know what? You're right, you've been planting seeds and this is my light bulb moment, I'm gonna go do that.
[00:31:57] But I guess this is a tricky question as well, because in a relationship, we feel like we have to be the therapist as well. And I often say to my wife, you're not my therapist. Um, you don't need to be my therapist. And there's a lot of pressure that partners put on each other to be that person, but sometimes you're over your head.
[00:32:14] Not everyone's trained in how to work with a mental health, you know, situation. I'm trained from a lot of lived experience. A lot of my learning actually came from my 30 years of being the client and also being the client in the system as well, talking to people. Social work just put an extra hat on my head just to say, yeah, I can do this as a social worker.
[00:32:35] But other people haven't had that experience. My wife's not someone who I guess similar to me, she, she grew up in an environment where they didn't talk about mental health. But she was also from a different psyche as well, from a different context. She didn't grow up where I grew up. She grew up in a nurturing, loving household that wasn't broken, that wasn't in an environment that made her feel scared and all that.
[00:32:53] And so, She was quite a strong person and I say was, but because now she's starting to get in tune with her softer side and, and her mental health as well. And that comes from being a parent too, like parenting's hard, for example. And so I often get phone calls from, from wives or daughters or sisters or moms, or, you know, the whole gamut, someone who's just got a guy in their life saying, Simon, how do I get him to therapy?
[00:33:17] I'm like, well, You've just got to plant seeds. Maybe it's sharing this podcast episode. And so, Hey, I heard Simon talking about mental health. Maybe just check it in. It was some good insights into parenting or whatever. Or maybe it's a book that they've been reading and say, Oh, I read this book. You know, you might want to check it out or maybe sitting down watching a movie inspired by mental health or whatever.
[00:33:39] Um, The iron claw and, and going, getting to that, that end and, and seeing that, that actor crying and, and, and that stuff like that. So it's planting these little seeds. It's, it's filling our lives with good stuff as well. It's not just everything. So negative it's, it's showing the light possible.
[00:33:56] Maybe it's the part of going to breath work or going to yoga or Pilates or going to the gym, encouraging that guy in their life to maybe get more active or to, to learn more things, do some self help, go back and do study or change career paths, leading by example, because guys watch this stuff.
[00:34:13] Sometimes we don't buy into it, but we do certainly watch it and, and maybe it's encouraging new relationships. Maybe they met a cool dad at the soccer club or whatever and say, Hey, you want to go talk to joey about soccer or whatever. planting these seeds of encouragement to do something a little bit different to what they're doing can hopefully open up their, their mind to going, okay, maybe I'm not feeling great.
[00:34:37] And maybe I need to talk about stuff, or, you know, maybe I need to go and just do some exercise or eat better or stop drinking. It's not necessarily about going to therapy. It's about holistically, how can we look at our life and what we're doing? And burnout did this for me. So when I was recovering from burnout, I was a couch potato.
[00:34:53] I was in pain mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, but getting out and just walking was a huge help. Walking around, listening to self help podcasts around motivation and stuff like that to rediscover joy. I started getting creative again. Um, last year I was experiencing a similar burnout. So I got into surfing and I've been loving surfing for its mindfulness and, and physical exercise.
[00:35:16] My body seems to be changing shape, losing kilos. I've stopped drinking all these types of things. It comes with a light bulb moment, but it comes that light bulb, you know, it needs to be watered from a seed that's planted over many times. And it can sound and feel monotonous, it would just never end sometimes.
[00:35:34] And for me, it took two years for that realization. Other guys, it's shorter. Other guys, it's longer because we are stubborn. We're combating against these social constructs that say that therapy is a weird thing to do. Don't do that. That's not where you go. But I'd say look at it also, if any guy's listening and you're thinking about doing it, and hopefully I've encouraged you to go do something, is I think we need to start normalizing mental health in the same way that we normalize our physical health. So for a guy, if we're out kicking a footy and we pull a hamstring, which is me every time, you know, I wouldn't hesitate to go to the physiotherapist and maybe do we get some stretches or get some, some work done, or if I've got a stiff back going and get a massage, like this is the mechanic stuff for our body.
[00:36:16] Our minds are important part of it because the mind is what gets everything going. So if our mind's cluttered or, fuzzy or depressed or anything like that. There's there's ways that we can fix that. And a lot of it's self care, but then it's also could be going to see the therapist because they can just fine tune us, give us some tips, tool strategies, or even just a space to just download.
[00:36:38] Um, and then we can walk out feeling much better and get on with our lives. It's not a, it's not a huge impost. Um, but what I see often is guys put that effort into unhealthy behaviors to try and fix things. So for example, a night at the pub, With the mates drinking gives us a band aid fix because we feel like we're venting and getting it out, but it doesn't actually fix anything in the long term, it actually gives us anxiety the next day or depression the next day, alcohol is a depressant, you know, if we can shift that maybe into exercise with our mates instead, or going to see a therapist, spending that same amount of money on a therapist actually gives you probably, you know, five, six sessions with a therapist as opposed to one big bender on a night out with the mates, um, start changing this, this attitude towards our mental health. I think we can start to get some better outcomes, but it all comes with, you know, planting seeds and lots of them and watering, watering them regularly as well.
[00:37:34] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Yes, and I think it's also important, you know, as a man to surround yourself with people who want the best for you. I think that can sometimes be a tricky thing, you know, especially growing up, maybe not an environment that really has you seeking that kind of support. So thank you for speaking to that on the relationship side of things.
[00:37:55] Are there any other, uh, particular comments that you want to make or things that if men are listening to this podcast right now and you want to speak directly to them, is there anything else that they should know?
[00:38:08] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah. I love this Tony Robbins quote. I always quoted it's that change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.
[00:38:18] So if we're sitting there going through the same old, same old feelings, emotions, behaviors every single week, and it's painful, maybe it's time for change. And, and once we get through the change, it's hard initially, but once we do it, the more we do it, it's like exercising. It's like training for a marathon.
[00:38:34] We're not going to do it in one go, but if we do it little step by little step, big things can happen and you can change your life. And you mentioned before around the social circles as well. If we're hanging around people that bring us down, maybe it's time to jump out of that social circle to people that bring us up.
[00:38:50] Therapists, partners, different friendship groups. But we've got to recognize in ourselves that something needs to change. And the other one that I add on to that is nothing changes if nothing changes as well. So you can keep doing the same old, but it's not going to help. And so you've eventually got to open up the lid to your own box and realize that there's a big wide world out there of hope, of healing, of different attitudes, different ways of looking at life.
[00:39:17] Different ways of feeling, thinking values. You know, we can explore all this in a therapy space, um, or a coaching space or, or a new group of friends. And so having that hope that change can happen and it's possible, and it's actually a good thing can go a long way to improving your mental health or improving your relationships.
[00:39:36] Cause it's, it's not just your mental health, it improves the relationship with your kids, for example, or maybe your wife or your partner or your parents or your friends, and then you can just be the best version of yourself. Possible. And who doesn't want that? Who wants, who wants to live life, you know, cynical and hurting and pain in pain when there's so much help around and a lot of it's free, free podcasts like this, you can get inspiration from everyday people doing the same thing.
[00:40:02] You know, they've also been through pain. I've been through pain. I've, I've kept it quiet. You don't need to do that anymore because it is so freeing to just share your true authentic self. It's a great thing, particularly for guys.
[00:40:15] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Thank you so much for sharing your message and really trying to like, shout it to the world so that it can reach as many men as possible.
[00:40:23] if whoever is listening to this is really resonating with what you have to say, where can people find you, learn more about you, hear more from you?
[00:40:33] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Yeah, so the website's the easiest place. So it's www.Mindful-Men.com.au. I do therapy in Australia. So I'm only in a therapist in Australia. I'm hoping to get some coaching up and running this year.
[00:40:43] So maybe go worldwide with the coaching. Um, but also links to my social media. I've got the mindful men podcast doing this week in week out as well on my own podcast. I've got a free Facebook group. So it's the mindful men community for men. So if they want to dip their toes into a wellness journey. Come into there.
[00:41:01] We do lots of free content, lots of encouragement, lots of mindfulness, you know, little affirmations and stuff like that, just to try and encourage guys to start going, okay, yep, I need to change or, or I want to change, or maybe just share, you know, some stories in the, in the group so they can get some accountability and stuff like that.
[00:41:17] So it's a free Facebook group, Mindful Men Community, come and join us. Um, but other than that, the website, which is all the socials and the podcasts as well.
[00:41:25] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: Awesome. I'm definitely going to be sharing your Facebook group with the men in my life and lots of clients that I see who could definitely benefit from that support.
[00:41:35] So thank you for creating that and thank you for such a powerful impactful episode speaking on men's mental health.
[00:41:42] Simon Rinne, Social Worker, Founder of Mindful Men: Oh Paige, I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for sharing, you know, this space with me and, and for any last little bit of wisdom, this is exactly what it looks like if you're going to therapy, it's just two people talking about whatever.
[00:41:53] And sometimes it's crying, sometimes it's laughing, sometimes it's serious, sometimes it's not. And I really appreciate you inviting me on to show the world exactly how easy it is to talk about men's mental health.
[00:42:05] Paige Bond, Relational Psychotherapist: You were so right and thank you for making it kind of like an easy entrance, an easy example of what it looks like.
[00:42:11] So listeners, thank you so much for getting to the end of this episode. Until next time, take care.
