Emotional and Financial Intimacy for Partnerships
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Show Notes
Do your money conversations with your partner go off the rail in 6.7 seconds? You’re not alone and Adam Kol explores the challenges of discussing money in relationships, understanding individual money stories, and the importance of values-based budgeting.
Adam also highlights key pitfalls couples face when managing finances and offers practical strategies to address financial stress and improve relationship dynamics.
04:15 Understanding Financial Therapy
08:50 Financial Intimacy: A New Perspective
27:58 Common Financial Pitfalls in Relationships
33:21 The Importance of Resolving Financial Conflicts and Starting the Money Conversation
41:15 Handling Different Financial Priorities
49:52 What Values-Based Budgeting is and Practical Tips to Use It
Adam Kol is The Couples Financial Coach. He helps couples go from financial overwhelm or fighting to clarity, teamwork, and peace of mind. Adam is a Certified Financial Therapist™, Certified Mediator, and Tax Attorney with a Duke Law degree and a Master's in Tax Law from NYU. He is a husband, dad, and musician, as well.
Adam's wisdom has been shared with The Wall Street Journal, the Baltimore Ravens, CNBC, NewsNation, and more.
Connect with Adam Kol
(1) Sign up to get a free copy of my book!: https://CouplesFinancialCoach.com/book-interest
(2) Instagram: https://instagram.com/couplesfinancialcoach
(3) Facebook: https://facebook.com/couplesfinancialcoach
(4) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamkol/
(5) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thecouplesfinancialcoach
Connect with Paige Bond
Instagram: @stubbornlovepaige
Facebook: @paigebondcoaching
TikTok: @paigebondcoaching
Website: https://paigebond.com
Paige Bond specializes in helping individuals, couples, and intentionally non-monogamous partnerships feel grounded, confident, and connected in their love life. She is also the founder of Sweet Love Counseling providing therapy in CO, FL, SC, and VT. Paige loves educating people about relationships through being the host of the Stubborn Love podcast, hosting workshops, and speaking at conferences.
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Transcript
(generated by AI - please excuse errors)
[00:00:00] Paige Bond, LMFT and Relationship Educator: Welcome to the Stubborn Love Podcast. I'm your host, Paige Bond. I'm a Gottman and attachment trained, solution focused marriage and family therapist. I specialize in helping folks design and build their dream relationships through structured therapy and resources. And also use modalities that go beyond traditional talk therapy, like accelerated resolution therapy and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.
School didn't teach us how to be good at love, so I created the Stubborn Love podcast to help you navigate it. Every episode has actionable tips that will help you create a happier, healthier, and more fulfilling life with the people you love. Join me on this journey of love and learning for the stuff they didn't teach you in relationship school.
[00:00:51] Paige Bond, LMFT: Welcome to another episode of stubborn love. We are going to talk about money today. We have a returning guest, Adam Kol, who is the couple's financial coach. We have another episode. Way early on back in the day, the early days of stubborn love. I'm so excited that we're kind of having this chat today because Adam, you have a new book coming out and I have lots of questions because finances seem to be coming up a lot in my couples therapy sessions lately.
So I have a lot of things to dig into. Just another part to brag about Adam before we do dive in and you introduce yourself to everyone. He's been featured in the wall street journal, Baltimore Ravens, CNBC, you are an expert when it comes to money, especially couples and money. So I'm so happy to have you here and have you back.
This is so cool and exciting. If they want to listen to your story and kind of learn a little bit about you, they can of course, listen to the original episode that you were on, but do you want to give a brief kind of bio about you and how you got into this position of being financial couples coach?
[00:02:07] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah, I mean, I've always been a numbers and finance kind of geek as a kid. I watched CNBC. My grandfather would, I'd come home from school, go to my grandparents house, and I would just love to watch all the numbers going by on the ticker, which had all the prices of the stocks up or down what percentages.
And so I was always just naturally interested in that and studied economics. I ended up going to law school. Cool. And after that, I got a master's in tax law because I wanted to stay in that realm. And I worked as a lawyer, and actually while I was in grad school, part of my journey was getting married and then divorced during grad school.
And, that was, Part of what ultimately inspired me to getting involved in working on myself and trying to become a better person. And that led me down a number of paths, including to, pursue a program to get certified as a mediator ultimately start this coaching business. And in short, just saw there was a huge need intersection of relationships and money. Relationships are tough. And money has its own unique wrinkles can be really challenging and. Once I realized that it was listed as the biggest relationship stressor, on to Google and I was like, looking for books and podcasts and people who focused on this. And I couldn't really find many. And I
[00:03:40] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, it's
[00:03:47] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: has been seven years ago.
[00:03:52] Paige Bond, LMFT: Gosh, it's been quite some time for you to get here
[00:03:57] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah. Coming up on seven years. That's what it is.
[00:04:00] Paige Bond, LMFT: so accomplished. And since we have last talked, we were talking about this a little bit, that is an update for you. There is, the certification and becoming a financial therapist. Can you talk a little bit about that? What, what is a certified financial therapist?
What, who needs to go see one? What do you do?
[00:04:22] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah, so financial therapy is a relatively new field compared to, like, let's say, some of these ways of approaching individual or couples therapy. But, it's It's really great stuff and it combines, financial planning general like finance and economics principles as well as mental health and psychotherapy principles and so, it there's a robust, study course and an exam and, you have to come from certain professions or professional backgrounds. And, it's through an organization called the financial therapy association. They're doing really great work out there, only on financial therapy, but to promote the idea that it
Are relating to each other about money,
Bring to the table. And the financial therapist's job is to guide you through the conversations that are really specific to money and your relationship with money and your money story, we call it, kind of like your perspectives and history. then of course, That's going to touch so many other aspects of your life because like it or not, money does matter in our society. And so the goal there is to really just understand yourself better, cultivate peace of mind, improve your financial health, both in terms of the numbers, but also inside of you, right.
And then bring some de stress that a bit. of course, for couples, how I think about it is my goal is to turn it into an area of connection not only does finance touch on so many different pieces of our lives in terms of affecting them materially, but also. implicates so many of our important values and our worries and the things that we care about.
So, uh, that's always where I'm coming from is helping couples, hopefully strengthen their partnership through, uh, Working on this stuff.
[00:06:37] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, and I recognize, and this is what we're going to talk about today anyways, but you mentioned like values when it comes to money. And I know that's like part of a chapter in your new book that we're going to discuss. And I would really like to talk about that and how that shows up in the room when you're working with couples.
Before we go down that route, I just want to say like you, I know you specialize in couples when it comes to like financial coaching and therapy, but boy, I can tell you, you can have a niche when it comes to, you know, providing that service for therapists as well. Because I think we also have a lot of our own money stories and it's really difficult being in a helping profession, but also like, ugh, we need to make a living too.
Yeah.
[00:07:29] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Be here, but I'm like, it's okay.
A doctor who is a cardiologist is not. Going to know everything about their feet, they would still go to, the podiatrist to make sure they're getting something right, it's totally normal and okay, and, yeah, therapists, just like everyone else, deserve to make a decent living, compared to, What it costs to get those degrees and marriage and family therapy masters.
Like you've got, I mean, I see you see the numbers that people are taking out in student loans. It's really big numbers and can make for a lot of added stress in a profession where you're already taking on stress just by virtue of the work and supporting your clients. So I
[00:08:18] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: you saying that.
[00:08:21] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, and I'm glad that you can also see people who are either in the field used to numbers or in the field With mental health and how you normalize that and I love the metaphor you used about Cardiologists going to a podiatrist yeah, there's gonna be some things that we're just not experts on So why not go to the expert?
So
us, talking a little bit more today focused on your brand new book that came out. So your book is the title is if I'm not mistaken, the financial intimacy for couples. Is that it? Ah, I love that financial intimacy. We always talk about like emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. Talk about this title because this is like a term that I'm not even familiar with.
And I think this is really important. Okay.
[00:09:40] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: right? That has, people use that widely, or financial independence, but this is something that. When I wrote the book I felt like I want to have this term get out there, because I do want to support a shift in how people think about money and, truthfully, if it's something that you're either fighting about constantly, or even struggling to, get food on the table or keep the lights on, You know, you may not care upfront about the kind of intimacy part of it, but my hope is that between my platform and my services and all that, and
[00:10:30] Paige Bond, LMFT: Very much. Okay.
[00:10:37] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Including because this is just a hard topic that means that there's a chance for people to be honest and vulnerable with each other. And in this case, it can also make a material impact on your financial wellbeing. And so that's, I think a powerful combination for it.
[00:11:01] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. And so what a gift that would just like keep paying dividends over and over again, if you set people up with the skills and I see your, your book talks about like getting clarity, becoming a team, having peace of mind with money.
[00:11:18] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: You're a hundred percent on point about the skills aspect of it, because I have from day one had clients who come to me and they explicitly asked me to just tell them what to do one or both of them, or, you know, they are ultimately hoping for that. And I I'm like, listen, if that's what you're looking for, working with me is probably going to disappoint you because that's not what here to teach.
You know, want this to be something where can learn how to tackle these things yourself. And. Even good things. And I think Paige, this is like maybe. The lesson that I've learned that has surprised me the most over the years that Biggie Smalls was right, that more money does create more problems from a particular point of view, right? Which is just that you have to decide what to do with that money. And it sounds like that should be a wonderful position to be in. And in many ways it is privileged, in terms of where I come in and help couples, this, it doesn't take away that stress just because there is of money there. And it often introduces. New complexities and new stresses that, in some cases aren't there. So I have clients who make seven figures a year. I have clients with figure trust funds. It doesn't really, It's not limited to any particular group of people or socioeconomic or income levels to have this around money or to feel overwhelmed by it, or to feel, like you don't know how to bring it up.
Or every time you do, it turns into a fight or, the fight doesn't actually get you anywhere, right? Like this persists. all different groups of people.
[00:13:36] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, it does not discriminate. Money can bring up problems no matter who you are, no matter what relationship setup you have.
[00:13:44] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah, I mean, I just saw it the other day, like Selma Hayek, having to get in, she gets criticized because she married a billionaire guy, and it's like, and she feels like she has to earn her own money in her marriage, even though the husband is a billionaire, and I mean, she, of course, has earned tons of money in herself, and it's just like, Even there, right? It really is capable of being, it can be a difficulty even for billionaires.
[00:14:14] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I. Yeah. I see this show up a lot in the room where I'm doing therapy and that need of like, I, I can't really depend on my partner because I've been working from maybe this mindset or framework my whole life of what if it doesn't work out? And so I have to make sure I have a cushion. I see that so much in the therapy room.
I'm sure you do as well as like part of people's money stories showing up.
[00:14:44] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Absolutely. And, you know, I try as much as I can to not come with a prescription as far as you need to have accounts or you should have some joint and some separate for fund money. My goal is always to help you be able to some of the options and the think through together the pros and cons and then, you know, facilitate you in your Partner talking through, why those things sound good or not as good for you. It's a real thing and, you know, depending on the couple, sometimes having your own financial safety net, even if your partner has never done a thing. To make you doubt their ability to manage money or to make you feel like they're actually gonna take advantage of you if that's what is necessary for you to feel and at ease and like you can then give yourself fully to the relationship because you feel secure, then great, you know, and I try and have it be.
[00:16:05] Paige Bond, LMFT: Um,
[00:16:32] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: a toaster together first. I remember a couple who, they went in and bought a van together, for, travels, and that was, their big first joint, thing, and great, because it met them where they were and allowed them to go at their own pace. It's not a moral thing. It's know, I'm going to help you look honestly at where you're at, where you want to go, what your expectations are and your hopes, even if you are nervous about saying them out loud, or maybe don't even let yourself think that those things are possible. And then once we've gotten all that out on the table, how can I help you get there
[00:17:13] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah,
[00:17:14] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: is unique for each couple
[00:17:17] Paige Bond, LMFT: I really appreciate that approach, that you're not just, you know, There to tell them what to do and give them the answers because I that would make them so dependent on you to make their decisions like I love that you just like give them education, the options and help guide them according to what they want out of their relationship.
[00:17:41] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: and, and you know, what's one of the things I enjoy about my job is that. It can touch on all different aspects. Sometimes it is actually about understanding how certain financial things work. recently I spent an entire session discussing, how donations to charity work with, Because they were tithing with their church and their incomes were solid and going up something that people don't realize is like, Oh, I make a deduction.
It's a donation is tax deductible and It is only if you itemize your tax deductions, which is for last I've heard, it's I think 1 percent or so of, in the U S have a reason to itemize. And I don't need to get in all the particulars, but the point is that there's a misunderstanding and, or sometimes listen, if I was a nonprofit. And I'm looking for donations to support an important cause. I'm not going to go out of my way to make sure people know they may not actually get a financial benefit for making this donation, right? But that's. An important thing because you might think, oh, I gave, you know, 10, 000 and 30 percent tax rate.
Okay. I just saved 3000. Well, maybe, but maybe not. Right. And so even beyond like the plan part and the, human part, there also is just. Pieces of knowledge and understanding certain concepts. Another huge one is like, what could be business expenses if you have a business of some sort, that I help a lot of my clients with because we often aren't really taught that we don't know that. even, like we might get advice that's. Either we don't understand what, so the accountant is trying to say, or the accountant may not be an expert themselves on a particular vacancy. You know, I'm always helping either fill in the gaps where I can, going to chat GPT as necessary, or, you know, suggesting like, this is a great topic to talk to. An accountant about or a financial advisor or a tax lawyer, because as you're saying, it's like for them to have the skills because their finances are going to change, you get a pet or a child, your finances change. It's not just like you earn more, you earn less. There's so many different things. In addition to those that will change your finances and they don't need, I don't want them to have to come to me every time anything changes and be like, what do we do now? Um, so that's really the goal that they can handle the vast majority of those things on their own. And then of course I'm there as a resource for things that feel particularly sticky.
[00:20:49] Paige Bond, LMFT: Mm hmm. And I don't know if you've been labeled this and I hope this is an appropriate one, but I almost see you as like kind of a translator for people who see like financial tax IRS language as like a foreign language. Like I identify as one of those. And it's like, you're the translator to make it digestible for people who like have not been taught or maybe not been taught correctly.
Like these concepts. So that we can get familiar with them and make the decisions ourselves.
[00:21:23] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, not to say there, are resources out there on these topics, it's Like the effort to find it and then to try and comprehend it. And it's just you with a recording. And then, you know, it's like, my goal is that I want to, of course, develop rapport with my clients.
And then hopefully not only is it a more engaging conversation and they can ask questions if something is unclear, but also hopefully they don't feel like they're being patronized because these are not just things that were not taught in some cases, but. pretty complex stuff. Hopefully that I can help them bridge the gap. And, because of my background and, and like, my interests. I like to understand all the different things. Part of what I do with my clients is help them identify what is really important and impactful for them right now, given where they're at in their life and their financial lives, right? Like the, if you're in your sixties, the way that social security benefits are treated for income tax purposes might be a really important topic. If you're in your early thirties, you're probably not the most Thinking about that too much so that one can wait. Maybe we can talk instead about like how 401ks and Roth IRAs work, and just to be clear, I don't give, legal advice or investment advice or
[00:22:57] Paige Bond, LMFT: Okay. You
[00:23:13] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: go. If you want to explore it further and maybe get, advice tailored to your specific situation, at least for the stuff that's like out of my scope, and it's a really important piece. doesn't education is not. The whole story, but it's also not none of the story, my hope is to support my clients in variety of different ways, given my background and experience, and, then help them figure out how to fill in whatever other gaps they might have,
[00:23:52] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, and I appreciate that, and I think it is so necessary. I mean, I even think that like, I, there's, there's so many things I wish we would do differently in the United States with how we present education. Like, why are we not having an actual financial course for people? But I don't want to get on that soapbox because I'm definitely going to tangent us to somewhere else.
And I want to talk about your book. So is there anything you want to say about your book before I dive in and kind of ask some questions about some of the chapters that you have?
[00:24:30] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: really, my book is full of the same stuff that I. Do with clients and, you know, I encourage people if they're feeling stuck, they can even just work through the book and see if that sticks. All right. If you're finding that to be challenging or you want particular support or whether it's because the conflicts are still challenging or because, you know, it's hard to find the discipline to keep working through these things, you know, reach out to me, but it's really to be there as a resource and hopefully help couples. have financial intimacy. Yes. But it's like, why? Because the goal is to make your life better, right? To make your relationship stronger, which makes your life better. and that's ultimately what my work is about. And so, you know, my hope is that the book supports that. That's,
[00:25:37] Paige Bond, LMFT: and for you to take all of the ideas in your brain and how you usually hold your coaching sessions and to make this into such a, an accessible resource for people so that they can take these skills like chef's kiss, like, it's so beautiful that that you're giving such a gift who may not be able to either afford services with you or like find the time to do coaching.
This can you. Really sounds like make a shift in how relationships handle money.
[00:26:12] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: the hope. I mean, there's nothing that was like held back because I'm like, I, Have been inspired by some other coaches on this idea that like, you can things with people and there's going to be some group that is going to be able to get what they need from the book. And so, okay, you don't have to come and take the time and money and energy as far as working with me.
But, there's some percentage is going to be like, I really want. What this is pointing at. I want to feel like I understand what's going on financially. And like my partner and I are on the same page and least take that stress or anxiety level from, maybe like an eight and a half down to like a five or a four, maybe even a three, right?
Like then I'm here and, you know, come speak to me about that.
[00:27:09] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, what a help. Always a resource if we need.
[00:27:13] Paige Bond, LMFT and Relationship Educator: I hope you're enjoying this episode. I wanna take a moment to invite you to sign up for my free Attachment Dynamics workshop. I have partners use this as a foundation before we get started in relationship therapy.
By watching this, you'll learn how to recognize negative communication patterns, understand how power dynamics show up in conflict, and most importantly, discover ways to turn conflict into opportunities for deeper emotional connection. And the best part, this is free for you. Make sure to head to paigebond.com or hit the link in the show notes to access it for free.
Now let's get back to the episode.
[00:27:53] Paige Bond, LMFT: So, let me dive into some of these chapters that catch my eye. And, of course, I don't want to, have you divulge everything because, of course, there's so much to read actually in the book, but, So, One thing that I am curious about, you talk about, relationship pitfalls, like mistakes that couples make when it comes to money.
I'm guessing there's quite a few pitfalls. So what would you say, some of the big ones that we don't even think about screw up how we handle money in relationships that we might not have already talked about?
[00:28:30] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah. Well immediately and something that we have touched on is like, That more income can be a really positive force. And also, if there's, things that are interpersonal about it. About the tension, stress, or conflict that it's not necessarily going to resolve those. The thing that I see is if you're one of those couples who's in a place where, you're not connecting about money, whether you're fighting about it or just avoiding it or what have you, usually there's at least one person who's feeling some anxiety and, or overwhelm. If you try to address that by going directly to your budget or your credit card statement, that oftentimes going to, it's like a short term fix, maybe. it will usually not get you where you want to go and can create more conflict. the reason is because if you haven't sat down and figured out a vision for where you're trying to get financially, you don't feel like safe to talk about these things together, then if you try and figure out what to do about a particular expense, or like, we need to cut a hundred dollars a month. I think we should remove X, Y, and Z expense. you and your partner are two different people. So the likelihood you're going to be aligned is. Pretty low, at least to be perfectly aligned. I mean, shout out to going through and checking for subscriptions that you didn't realize you still had on your credit card statement, like that's a huge thing to do because those are often no brainers, but, if you go straight to the numbers, Like that, without this broader context, without feeling emotional trust and safety around talking about money, even if you're able to move forward and like shave that a hundred dollars a month, in theory, at least off of your expenses in the long run, you've probably just deepened whatever dynamic already wasn't working. like it involved one partner strong arming the other, or one person just like Feeling so anxious and needing to cut that money. And the other person reinforcing their role is like the, one who acquiesces and then feels resentful later. And, you know, it's like, it can just reiterate these patterns and habits, not to mention that the particular financial decision you're making, you're missing out if it lacks context, because it's like, well, for what reason are we cutting 100 a month, right?
And then. There's different ideas and different options, right? Sometimes there's emergency situations. So, I mean, anything that I'm saying is contextual, right? So for folks listening, of course, think about how does this fit with your particular situation. Sometimes there's an emergency, you know, you owe a gambling debt to the wrong person. You gotta generate 100. It is what it is. Okay, but for those who are fortunately not in that kind of situation in the moment, if you can build that foundation, it's going to serve you the long term and then allow you to make more aligned decisions and to feel better about them. Your situation matters. Sometimes I have clients who feel like, Oh, I just, I am totally, I overspend. I just spend on the buy ridiculous things or their partner says that about them. And I say, look, if you were a Kardashian, what you spend is no problem, right? It's like probably quite low. It's relative to your situation, but also of interest is not just figuring out what are the things that are most important. Important to you and most worthwhile spending money on, but also why do you judge yourself so harshly about it? Or why does partner, do they feel so upset by your spending? Why does that create so much anxiety or frustration or even anger for them? Let's see if we can figure out what the heck is going on there. Because that's the piece, you guys don't resolve that, the greatest plan in the world. can just fall by the wayside. You can, crumble it up and
[00:33:32] Paige Bond, LMFT: Oh, yeah, a whole therapy session.
[00:33:56] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: context, and that's just going to make them more robust. There'll be a stronger consensus, which will make both people feel more invested and give it a higher likelihood of sticking. you have also a higher chance that the decisions you make are actually appropriately reflective of what matters to you, Or if you find out that they aren't, then you can change things up and it's not the end of the world either. So that kind of foundation before you jump right into the numbers, I, I can't stress that enough. Find a way to break the ice, get the conversation going. If you always fight about money, find a way to have at least a dialogue or two that don't involve fighting. And that's what the whole start of my book is. There's so many questions. We can ask each other about money are not super complicated. They're just like, how did your parents handle money growing up? do you think that affected you and how you look at money today? I mean, those are questions you can talk for a long time and, Yeah. And don't underestimate the impact of having just a couple of conversations that lead to fights. It can settle kind of your mind, your nervous system, whatever. So that now it's not just doesn't feel as much of a threat to talk about money. And we don't need it to be your favorite conversation. Right? We don't need it to be there's zero stress at all when it comes to money, universal peace of mind. You're the Buddha when it comes to, no, it's just if we can take where you're at, and if you can have 20, 30, 40% Less stuff around it, then that makes you likely more likely to bring something up and bring it up sooner that conversation to go well, which then makes it more likely for the next time you want to bring something up that you'll bring it up sooner before it gets too bad or too much resentment builds. Right. And then you also can handle the financial issue before it gets too out of hand. So it. I think of it like those kind of ripple or flow through effects are really powerful. If you can start with the right foundation.
[00:36:34] Paige Bond, LMFT: You gave so much good guidance right there, and I'm going to try to, Put this concisely, but from what I'm understanding is what we think may be an easy fix to our money situation may not just have to do with a simple, Oh, numbers, cut this, cut that, add this, add that. Because it's not, it's like putting a bandaid over like an open heart wound.
That needs to be like sutured or have a surgery on which is like that more intimate emotional conversation around this. Mm hmm. Okay. All right. Yeah, and I love the idea of getting like a few wins where you can feel more settled in having better conversations. If we can have this hope, inspired by some conversations going well, it seems like that can really feed into this idea of.
Oh, okay. So if that conversation went well, maybe we can approach this financial conversation that has been causing a lot of conflict.
[00:37:39] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Right. And along the way by talking about these kinds of things, like how you view money, your experiences and how they've shaped you, hopefully you and your partner are also learning more about each other. So if I understand, how stressful money was for you growing up. Let's say that gives me, maybe more grounds, like I'll more naturally have empathy with you if I'm feeling frustrated about how you're with money in the relationship. It also means. If you more of your own stresses around money and where they come from, or your points of view around money and where they come from, that's also helpful for you and maybe can help you not get as overwhelmed or activated when you're talking about money with I mean, this happened the other day, I was going to pick up a little snack for myself and my wife, and she says as she's getting out of the car, can you get me a bottle of water? Now, a bottle of water in these places is probably, two or 3, four bucks at the most. like the items we got for ourselves were twice as much, as the bottle of water would have been right. As soon as she asked for the bottle of water, it was just like. My instinct was because, but that's just something that I bring to the table at times is that like, we have particular senses about what is or isn't good money to spend on.
And like, you come in with predispositions and will show up. thankfully I've was able to say to her, don't don't pay attention to that. It's just my, instinct to to grumble about any spending I feel isn't necessary. And of course, I mean, I was getting myself a smoothie.
That's definitely not necessary. Right. it just shows up where it shows up. And if you can know some of that about yourself, then you can, it's not that I'm trying to say, have no emotions or no emotional reactions, it's how can you navigate when you do have them and, minimize the chance that it turns into a fight maybe even, have an opportunity for. Your partner to understand you, that my wife is like, okay, I get him a little bit better now. Like he just, it can be really stressful at times for him. things that don't even seem like it would make sense to be stressful in terms of finances. But. It can be that way. Right. And that can help her think about how to conversations with me in a way that's constructive and helpful.
Right. Which for me is I need them often a few moments or a few days to wrap my head around, a new expense being added to monthly, fixed expenses or right, make a bit, say, even if we can afford it, I still need some time to get my brain and my nervous system wrapped around it, however you want to call it. And then we can move forward, right? So, hopefully having these conversations and thinking about these histories and experiences and how they affect you will open up some of those opportunities.
[00:41:14] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. And I think you touched on something that I wanted to go in the direction too, as kind of What do we do when we have different priorities and we believe in, have these differences and what's important in how we spend our money. Right? So if, I won't use your example, but let's say I like to go to concerts.
So I'll use concerts. Let's say, I believe, 50 concert ticket is worth it. And you know, I'll, I am faced with a partner who is saying, no, I don't want to pay more than 20. I do miss the 20 concert days. And they're like, no, that's not worth it. Don't spend your money on that. Like, how do we deal with like actual differences of beliefs?
Because sometimes people don't want to like knock their own system of beliefs. Like, is that a stalemate or can you actually work with that?
[00:42:11] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yeah, I mean, you can. The particular kind of prescription for a situation like that, it can be different depending on what are the particulars for that couple, right? So, for example, It could be that the person who thinks they only want to pay 25, they've got something going on. Like I did about that bottle of water.
They've got something going on about certain concert tickets, right? Like in my family, we kind of have the opposite. It's like, if you're going to go see, especially a show, at a kind of indoor venue type of thing, it's like, if you're not sitting orchestra, why are you even wasting your time? We're pretty snobby about that. And So it kind of cuts the other direction. It's like, if you can't spend the big money, then you don't want to even go see the show at all. And then you might miss out on actually the experience that would be otherwise really great. So the first question that I always think of, it's not necessarily the easiest one to answer first, but where or why is this actually a problem? to go back to the Kardashians example. You may not like the idea of spending 50 instead of 25 on the ticket, but if I got 9 figures as 10 figures in the bank really doesn't matter. Like, it's not likely to be impactful in terms of the quality of our life or, you know, the likelihood that we'll end up in a struggling position financially. So, okay, where does it actually matter? And is it possible to both? Is it possible that I can have a place where I can spend this kind of money on tickets, even if it's not your thing. And this is part of why a lot of my clients like to have, personal buckets like one and person to have A certain amount of money they might even have that in a distinct account.
You know, you could either do it like each month, part of the budget is a hundred dollars for you, a hundred dollars for your partner, of course, the amounts or whatever you want to make them, you could, you know, each have your own accounts, and there's a number of different ways to structure all that, that could potentially be your money where it's like, is money.
You're free. To spend however you want, as long as you are, let's say, not carrying a balance on the credit card or something that you use to fund it.
[00:44:46] Paige Bond, LMFT: Like coming up with your own, your own guidelines. Okay. Okay. Good. Well, you know, actually, Okay.
[00:45:18] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: same idea, just try to understand each other's point of view. Without it having to be that one person is right and one is wrong, you know, I mean, in the therapy world, we just call it validating the other person's perspective, right?
Like, and just like, okay, I understand why, like, for you, concerts were, are just like the, one of the things that helps you recharge your battery and feel connected to your body because, you know, you love to go there and dance or whatever. Okay. Right. Maybe now I have a little bit more insight into you and why you're spending. There are at times questions where it's like there's really broader work and there may not be too much you can do in a particular moment to address that, right? Like if of you, let's say person who wants the
[00:46:16] Paige Bond, LMFT: Okay. Okay.
[00:46:28] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: these things may not move the needle too much, in terms of the particular concert and that's where it's like, Okay, you know, maybe we need something more thorough where this person can, explore their relationship with money and learn tools and strategies for improving their situation.
And, Coping with the and anxieties that come along with, in our modern world and trying to manage the 10 billion different aspects of your finances to be an adult. You know, again, it'll vary in short, each other's perspective is always big, but a lot of people miss that first one. is this actually a problem? Right? It's like, take a look. And this is where knowing where you're at financially and what your goals are and how on track you are. It can be huge because if you're not on track for your goals. Then adding an additional unnecessary expense might feel one way, but if you're crushing it, then, okay, is this actually a problem to make this expenditure and if it's not, then, okay, you know, we figure out how to make that work and, for the person who might have that bigger picture anxiety, then, you know, that's something I think it's worthwhile to, try and explore. So that you don't have to experience that anymore. And like I said, I get it personally, if you have come with that anxiety, it can show up in all kinds of places. It can show up in the name brand, again, Heinz ketchup instead of the like store brand, right? You're like two extra dollars for the ketchup.
That's ridiculous. a lot of this stuff is ingrained from childhood. So, you know, The biggest thing is to not run from the complexities or the differences, actually lean into them and say, okay, practically, strategically, tactically, what's going on? Is this an issue? How can we resolve it? immediate, something longer term, but then also, Interpersonally or even individually, are there dynamics or even past trauma here or things like that, that we can look at and the more you can improve any of those aspects, it will just continue to help. Across hopefully a variety of different topics and conversations around money.
[00:49:07] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I mean, as you bring up the idea of how, maybe even past traumas could Be at play I just thought of the scenario what if you had, were promised an experience by maybe a parent and they were supposed to take you to a concert and then never did. And so maybe then you hate concerts and, don't see them as valuable.
And so you can't fathom why your partner would be spending that kind of money, but due to your own experience in your own lens, I have so many more questions to ask you, but I know we're already going over our time and I really thank you for going into detail about these topics. But one other thing that I wanted to, touch on and you've seemed to have mentioned it as a common thread throughout these conversations, which I think is just so important.
So helpful. But I wanted to get a little bit more clear on values based budgeting because you talk about this in your book and just in summary, can you talk about what values based budgeting is and how that can actually help you get out of like really difficult situations when it comes to money with your partner?
[00:50:12] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Absolutely. It's one of my favorite topics for sure, because part of the goal here, okay. You know, we can talk, there's a lot of emotional and relational pieces to it, but it's also, how can we get. The most bang for our buck, like we work our tails off if we're lucky enough to enjoy our job. Great. A lot of people work their tails off doing something they do not enjoy. So it's like, you want to make sure you're getting the most for your money. Right. And then it can be easy to, a lot of people feel like just where did it all go? Like, I can't believe I make this much and I still don't have much to show for it or what. So values based budgeting is. The idea of being really basically intentional where your money goes. And this, when I talk about this, I'm focused more on day to day type of expenses rather than big picture, what direction are you going? You know, do you want to buy a home or that, but you can apply similar ideas. The basic concept is to. Look at the things that you are spending on or could be spending on and figure out a way to prioritize them. That might sound like a overwhelming task upfront. And so what I've done is it down into some helpful categories. The first one is. So this is things like rent or electric or food. Now, the key pieces to note for necessities are you have to spend money on them, or you have to get them somehow, but they also, the amount you spend, Isn't necessarily fixed, Like you could more or less on groceries in the short term. Maybe you can't change your rent or mortgage payment, but it is in the longer term anyway, like there, there is an opportunity there if that is something that you decide is important, but those are the necessities. Right. Then the other category on the other end, you have the, like, I don't even know why we have this expense.
It's like. The classic one here is subscription that you Didn't even mean to have or the subscription you forgot you had or the subscription you don't want to have anymore but as you go through you might find other things that you're like, yeah I really don't know why We end up doing that. And those are the easiest to cut right? Okay, so we've marked off the necessities And we've highlighted the ones that are like zero out of 10 would not spend on again. Right now. kind of juicy part is like those middle two categories and how I call them. little bit wordy, but I think it's important cause it's, it's like subtle is, totally worth the money. And like, Nice to have, but maybe not totally worth them. And you and your significant other are probably going to have some differences of opinion here. But the idea is by going through this exercise, if you're like, shoot, we do need to cut a hundred dollars from our spending each month. You have place to start. And you've already cut all of your, you know, I don't even know why we spend this, expenses. Then you look at how each of you thinks about those middle categories, you know, which ones are nice to have, but maybe not totally worth the money, right? Um,
it's
[00:54:25] Paige Bond, LMFT: And where do they overlap first? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
[00:54:28] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yes, exactly. So if you find stuff that each of you has in the lower value category, that's like the situation, right? And then if you've exhausted those, okay, but at least it gives you a sense of organization and structure and, something where you hopefully, Can do it in a time where things aren't hyper stressed maybe and you can, try to be honest and thoughtful about that and, you know, it's like I think personally, there are places that can get sushi these days, right? And wife and I both enjoy sushi and. the restaurants where we've gotten it, there are a variety of
[00:55:16] Paige Bond, LMFT: Okay. Okay.
[00:55:42] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: like, some of these places where we'll get, Thai food or something, and then they'll have, a veggie roll, which is tasty, but it's, just pretty straightforward. You get, asparagus, cucumber, avocado, and that's, What it is, right? Okay,
[00:55:59] Paige Bond, LMFT: Doesn't hit the spot.
[00:56:01] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Right, yes, it's nice to have. It may be something where if the budget had a lot more room in it, you'd do it, no problem. But if you need to for something to cut, it's like, okay, maybe when we order from that kind of place, it's something we leave off. And I'm not trying to say that one sushi roll is difference any more than one latte or one avocado toast. And I mean, Paige, like none of what I'm saying has, I'm not talking about here, bigger picture and structural considerations
[00:56:40] Paige Bond, LMFT: Okay.
[00:57:06] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: can we do so that you're able to have, know, your best quality of life and achieve the goals that are most important to you, you know, in that situation,
What can we do so that you have that much more ease and peace of mind, fewer fights and fewer fights that feel like they have no resolution, and hopefully more connection
[00:57:28] Paige Bond, LMFT: And it sounds like going about it this way can help you still get to enjoy your life. Even if like you're paying off financial debt or, you know, in, in this place where you're, trying to put money away for savings, like you can still enjoy your life. Even if. it looks different than maybe your lifestyle has been used to.
It's adjustable. It sounds like when you use the values based budgeting.
[00:58:00] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Yes. And, and that's part of the idea. If we just kind of go through unexamined, then. We just spend whatever we spend and we deal with it. Some people that looks like just doing that thing that they really enjoy, they, they don't, handle the financial impact well, and then it hurts them longterm. Sometimes it's people who. Are like so worried about the financial impact that they don't that thing or have that thing or get that thing They really would enjoy and then they're not missing out on that the idea this approach is let's be intentional and mindful about it You know ultimately Be able to have enough of like a picture and a foundation Interpersonally, but also in the numbers so that you can look and say okay if we want to add You know, to be able to go once a month to a concert and spend 50 on the ticket. What would that look like? What would it look like to find, to carve out that 50? Within our plan and what we're trying to achieve so that we're not jeopardizing our other goals, but we can still enjoy the concert. And, you know, the idea of putting more money towards the things that you really enjoy starting to gain some traction in the world of like financial advice and thinking, and then, you know what, it's worth considering Enjoying life is I don't want to
[00:59:41] Paige Bond, LMFT: Why are we not?
[00:59:42] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: about it, but right, right. And so, you know, if this can help you have more opportunities for that, I think it's a really great thing, including because like to be able to, not just to be able to travel, but to be able to travel not. anxious before, during and after about the financial implications be able to go out to a nice dinner and not feel stupid before, during and after, because how could I spend money on this? just because I like food, or whatever, it's going to help perhaps calm down some of those voices and allow you to be present to enjoy that thing. So that's really the hope with it.
[01:00:32] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. Beautifully said. I love that so much. So I feel like we, we still have like so much more to talk about in your book. I mean, listeners, you're just going to have to read it. I'm sorry. We can't talk forever in here. I know we could, but, We both have lives and So we have to get back to them But thank you so much for sharing and going in depth a little bit more about your book and all the really great things that it Has can you tell listeners where to find it and where to find you and anything else you have going on you want to share?
[01:01:11] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Absolutely. So, my website is Couplesfinancialcoach. com, so you can always contact me through there, or Adam at Couplesfinancialcoach. com is the email. If you go to Couplesfinancialcoach. com slash book, like B O O K, that's not for booking a session. That's couplesfinancecoach. com slash schedule. But in this case, slash book is going to, you'll be able to find the link to, my book, which is available on Amazon for Kindle ebook or for paperback. You can also go on Amazon and search financial intimacy for couples and, the book should pop up and, Yeah, give it a read and see where it can add value to your life and improve the quality of your financial situation, your relationship. That's, that's the hope. I'm Couples Financial Coach on social media as well. And, just feel free to reach out if there's anything I can offer to help you in your relationships and financially.
[01:02:14] Paige Bond, LMFT: Fantastic. Oh, all right listeners. Your job is to now read A lot of reading to do, but I'm so glad that everyone has stuck with us through this episode and hopefully brought a lot of nuggets with them back to their relationship or even just themselves if you're not in a relationship. So Adam, thanks again for being a guest to be on the show of Stubborn Love again.
I'm so happy to have you back
[01:02:45] Adam Kol, The Couples Financial Coach: Thanks so much for having me, Paige. It was a pleasure.
[01:02:48] Paige Bond, LMFT and Relationship Educator: that's a wrap for today's episode of Stubborn Love. I hope you gathered some wisdom to bring into your love life and improve your relationships. If you enjoy today's chat, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. That'll help this episode reach even more listeners, if you have any questions or stories you would like me to cover in the future episodes, drop me a message.
I love hearing from you. If you need extra support in your relationships, check out how we might be able to work together by hopping on my website @ paigebond.com. Until next time, don't let being stubborn keep you from secure love. Catch you in the next episode.
