Feeling Seen and Creating Intimacy in Modern Relationships

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Show Notes

Ready to learn how to create intimacy, manage relational anxiety, and understand attachment strategies? Are you ever split between wanting to feel seen while fearing vulnerability? Discover the importance of internal/external boundaries and the significance of diverse relational dynamics beyond romantic partnerships.

02:04 Diving into Intimacy and Relationships

04:32 Understanding and Addressing Shame with Empathy

10:33 Attachment Strategies vs. Styles

14:01 Exploring Emotional Boundaries

20:42 The Importance of Diverse Connections

24:26 Monogamy vs. Non-Monogamy

28:37 Relational Anxiety Group

As a LCSW, relationship therapist specializing in helping individuals and couples generate creative intimacy in their lives. I help people who fear being close with loved ones embody courage to open themselves for intimate connection.

Connect with Brittani Procknow

Website: bprocknow.com

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IG: @brittani_procknow

Connect with Paige Bond

Instagram: @stubbornlovepaige

Facebook: @paigebondcoaching

TikTok: @paigebondcoaching

Website: https://paigebond.com

Paige Bond specializes in helping individuals, couples, and intentionally non-monogamous partnerships feel grounded, confident, and connected in their love life. She is also the founder of ⁠Sweet Love Counseling⁠ providing therapy in CO, FL, SC, and VT. Paige loves educating people about relationships through being the host of ⁠the Stubborn Love podcast, ⁠hosting workshops, and speaking at conferences.

Free Jealousy Workbook: 

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Free People Pleasing Workbook: 

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Attachment Dynamics Workshop:

⁠https://www.paigebond.com/attachment-dynamics-workshop-sign-up⁠

Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.

Mental Health Resources: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255SAMHSA’s National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 for free, 24/7 crisis counseling.

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Transcript

(generated by AI - please excuse errors)

[00:00:00] Paige Bond, LMFT: Welcome to the Stubborn Love Podcast. I'm your host Paige Bond. I'm a Gottman and attachment trained, solution focused marriage and family therapist. I specialize in helping folks design and build their dream relationships through structured therapy and resources. And also use modalities that go beyond traditional talk therapy, like accelerated resolution therapy and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

School didn't teach us how to be good at love, so I created the Stubborn Love podcast to help you navigate it. Every episode has actionable tips that will help you create a happier, healthier, and more fulfilling life with the people you love. Join me on this journey of love and learning for the stuff they didn't teach you in relationship school.

I hope you enjoy this episode. Now let's get ready to rock and roll. 

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stubborn Love.

Today we have a special guest named Brittany Prochnow. They are a licensed clinical social worker, and I think I found someone just as obsessed with relationships as I am. So we're here to talk about relationships and creating intimacy, and I have lots and lots of questions.

So before we dive into all of that good stuff, Brittany, can you kind of just introduce yourself to the audience? Let them know how you even got on track to become a specialist in relationship therapy. 

[00:01:29] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Sure, first off, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

I started off in doing in home family therapy and then worked my way into addiction work, doing intensive outpatient groups, which essentially means three hours a group, three times a week, and then doing Individuals and couples or family groups, and then worked my way into doing private practice. So throughout those experiences, the theme of relationships has really been the strongest one that I've been drawn to and learning more about and wanting to specialize in.

[00:02:04] Paige Bond, LMFT: And I know that you're really passionate about intimacy, and I was looking on your website, and this is just my ADD brain, I see that a part of it says intimacy, and it says, into me, you see. It took me a few, like, repetitive, internal dialogues of saying that, I'm like, oh my god, that's such a beautiful message.

So can you talk a little bit more about intimacy, and how that's connected, like, into me, you see. 

[00:02:32] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Sure. Sure. Yeah. I think I ripped that off from another podcast, but yes, it is. I think that people talk a lot about being in the feeling seen and oftentimes I think that we deeply crave it, but also deeply fear it because when we think of what might people see, who will they see if they deeply see into me?

Will they see the parts of me that I even find almost intolerable to myself? And if they see that, will that be the thing that pushes them away? And on the flip side, also deeply wanting the empathy and understanding to feel seen in all of who we are. So I think that there is this sort of juxtaposition of deeply wanting it and craving it for ourselves and for other people to see into those parts of us while also deeply fearing it too. 

[00:03:23] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is so common as part of the cycle for partners to get in. Like, they really want that connection, but oh my gosh, what if they find me out and they see all of the mess within me, all of the mistakes. So, can you talk a little bit about like, how do those fears even get started?

Like, does it start later in life? What happens? 

[00:03:46] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I think it starts from a very early age. Think about attachment. I think that when we're younger, at some point we learn that there are conditions. There are grades, there are ways of being, there are acceptable behaviors and not acceptable behaviors. But as children, we don't really know how to differentiate a behavior versus who we are.

So I think that over time, when we receive maybe repetitive messaging, or it just takes one message, one time to really shake that sort of shame into us. about ourselves being acceptable beings, then that really shakes our self esteem, maybe self worth, and ability to really feel that level of understanding and acceptance from those around us.

[00:04:32] Paige Bond, LMFT: I think what's coming up for me when you say that, and I wrote it down, like, we don't know how to differentiate a behavior versus who we are, I automatically go to the realm of shame, because I feel like that just, like, takes over, it is so all encompassing. So, I'm wondering if you see that as a big factor, like, connected to that, like, okay, I guess this is me, I'm a bad partner.

[00:04:55] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, I think shame, like, love Brene Brown's work around shame and vulnerability, of course, and I think that it's become a term that we use a lot, is like, Can we really sit in really what it is because we can intellectualize what it is, but to really feel it and experience it as like, these are the parts of us that we might exile, that we find the shadow sides of us, the parts of us that we really struggle to be in.

And that's like the feeling of shame as we experience it and then may want to hide it away from other people. 

[00:05:29] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, like who does want to sit with that? That's icky. Yeah, it's not comfortable, to say the least. So, my question is, with a lot of the couples work you do, is that part of the process, you have them sit in that place?

[00:05:44] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, we go to the uncomfortable emotions, the uncomfortable parts, and have them sit and experience that place. I'll say, kind of in how I work with couples, this may take quite a few sessions before we get there, because the idea is that One partner can go into that place while the other partner is able to see, like, lean into understanding and empathy while their person is in that place as well.

[00:06:11] Paige Bond, LMFT: I'm so curious about the process because it sounds like it takes a while before getting there and almost like a precursor to that is needing an understanding of what empathy is. So how do you help educate partners to know what that is and to start implementing that? 

[00:06:27] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I say that empathy is being able to put your own shit aside.

So it's really being able to almost take all of the rebuttals, all the emotions, all of the defenses, and putting it to the side to be able to sit with, witness, and experience another person as they are and as they're showing up in the moment. That's what I think that active empathy really is and working with couples, it takes a while because they're coming in and they might not be happy with each other.

There might be a lack of sexual connection. There might be a macro emotional intimacy and there's all these experiences and stories they have about the other person and about themselves. And so they're coming in with a lot and they're also coming with their own history of what life has been like even before their relationship has began.

So it takes a while to get into like the individual parts of having them notice and witness their own emotions to then be able to notice and witness their partners. 

[00:07:29] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I start to think of all of the people that I try to help and how hard that empathy piece is with putting your shit aside because even though they may want to go in and Listen and be there.

I've seen a lot of the clients I work with, they struggle to actually go there because their fear of the feelings are just going to be too big and they may not be able to handle them themselves. So what would you say to those partners who maybe Struggle with understanding, not even understanding, but like sitting in the discomfort of those big feelings that don't feel good to hear from your partner.

[00:08:07] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, I kind of just was reading and did some writing today about our intolerance to boredom and other hard emotions and how often someone may find a big emotion so intolerable and then the other will delegate it maybe to the other person and then the other person becomes responsible for it. Many of us may have experienced, let's say, a parent in our childhood who was very angry or rageful or very anxious, and then the whole family dynamic would shift around the emotions of that person.

So it's in part being able to, let's say, have the emotionally dysregulated person be able to create a sense of internal boundaries in themselves. So that they can actually start to tolerate their own emotional experiences, even as hard as they are. And then those around them to create more of the external boundaries of what do you need when the other person's experiencing this sort of emotional response.

[00:09:05] Paige Bond, LMFT: That doesn't sound like easy work. 

[00:09:07] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: No, no, it takes a lot of time and patience. Like, I think I was actually talking to somebody about this because I, at some point in my kind of cases of like working with couples, I was like, I feel like I'm getting the sense of like dropping off before we're just getting into the work and then end and I'm like, Oh man, is it me?

Is it the process? And I think about it's long and it's tedious and it's not easy. And I think we just really want the results and we want them so badly. And then it's like. trying to sprint a marathon. So it can be hard. 

[00:09:38] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. I'm curious how you might like instill hope in those people who maybe don't have as much skill built up for patients and want the results sooner.

How are you able to still lead them along into the process and let them know, yes, this is hard. Yes, it's slow. And we're still getting there y'all. 

[00:09:59] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I think that it's really highlighting the progress, the incremental progress that happens along the way, because it's, hey, this work is hard and you're still here.

I use like exercises analogy all the time. It's like, yes, these sets are hard and you're still doing the reps. You can do the hard things and you're doing it for each other and you're showing each other that you matter. 

[00:10:19] Paige Bond, LMFT: I like that. I think it's really important to focus on those highlighting progress points and I think too often like us therapists just like talk about the problems and we don't like highlight those improvements.

So I love that you incorporate that. I know that attachment is like your bread and butter and in your work you've kind of talked about how like we have these attachment patterns and they are strategies rather than a style. Now I know a lot of times people hear the buzzword attachment style, so can you explain to listeners the difference between strategies versus style?

[00:10:55] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: This might be a bit of a personal agenda too, but like, I think that we really enjoy things like quizzes or things like diagnostical tools to say who we are. So, of course, the attachment styles that are well known are the anxious, avoidant, secure, and disorganized, as we noted in the class before. These aren't necessarily defining of who we are in our relationships, that they can change.

These have been strategies that we've adapted to. We learned that we didn't come onto the planet already having them in us. So it's really, I think, important to stress how it's a strategy that we can evolve and adapt and change than a style that will continuously default to. Without awareness or knowing or unable to change it.

[00:11:45] Paige Bond, LMFT: I think that's a huge game changer and I recall that in my training with EFT as well that they call them as strategies rather than style. So that it's not like this hard into place where people just feel like they're stuck in that box. And I feel like even that just gives people a lot more hope.

Understanding like, Oh, this is what I'm doing in response to. So can you talk a little bit more about kind of maybe the behaviors that come up with those different strategies that you see in your work that common couples usually use in conflict or disconnection? 

[00:12:19] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I think that some people will, so in EFT, we talked about the pursuer and withdrawal dynamic, that some people who will want the connection by say, talking about it more, wanting to rehash arguments.

Really looking to their partner to try to pull them in by maybe feeling very anxious and they might often like criticize or like have an argument because they're just looking for any sort of attention from their partner. And I think attention is often the most overlooked form of love. And then the other person who withdraws may feel super overwhelmed and want to disconnect, take space.

They might call themselves a really independent ones. They'll call themselves like, you know. I'm the one who just needs my time and my space. And so they'll use that and try and pull away. But often what they're trying to do is regulate their nervous system because they are feeling a sense of overwhelm.

These strategies show up a lot in couples work. And then I will also see what I like to call it. The emotional dysregulated partner and then the emotionally responsible partner. So the one who's emotionally dysregulated will often delegate their emotions out to their partner. And then the emotionally responsible one was like, Oh my gosh, you're having anger, sadness, anxiety, and I need to do something about it.

So that becomes another kind of dynamic. in place. 

[00:13:37] Paige Bond, LMFT: Ooh, can we dive into that a little bit more because I feel like that's way too often overlooked and I try to incorporate that from actually more the, the pact model where it's like talking about co regulation and what it sounds like it's doing. So can you talk a little bit more about the responsibility for the emotional response dysregulated?

What are they to do? Honestly, 

[00:14:01] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: it's tolerance of hard emotions for both parties, but the emotionally responsible one, the recognition of their limitations and control to the response of their partner. It's like you can't control how they're feeling. You can do. 10, 000 things, and they still might feel this way.

And the idea that you have control over it is really you also trying to feel at ease in yourself, but it's like taking on, like, I had a friend use this analogy of like, it's like you're, you're walking through the airport and have those luggage carts. And the person next to you has really heavy luggage and you keep trying to take it off of them to try and make their load feel lighter.

But really all you're doing is creating more weight for yourself and the other person's not feeling the lightness, they're still feeling what they're feeling. 

[00:14:46] Paige Bond, LMFT: Oh, that's such a good, like, visual image. Like, I see this pattern so often in the people I work with. Okay. And so you kind of educate people, sounds like, that, hey, that doesn't work for you.

So let's try something else. So how do you guide them after that? 

[00:15:04] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Sure. So for each partner, so the one who's emotionally dysregulated and or the emotional delegator. So the emotional delegator oftentimes lacks Internal boundaries, and they might have grown up with this idea that their emotions are too big to handle, so then they need to delegate it out to other people, or they'll turn to substances or work or gaming or sex or porn or whatever it might be to try and always feel better from the outside.

So it's really working with. This person to create more of an internal boundary of that. Like your emotions can't, you can contain them in a way that feels safe to you. You can tolerate it. You can ride the emotional waves. It's using a lot of like mindfulness strategies to try and have someone like sit in the discomfort and say, you can do this.

And then the other partner who will be the emotional responsible partner, it's setting external boundaries. So they don't keep trying to take on the other person's stuff and then going, okay, what do you need to feel regulated in yourself? What is yours versus what is the other person's? 

[00:16:08] Paige Bond, LMFT: Mm hmm. I love that there's this process of internal boundaries, external boundaries, to create one safety between you know, both of them and internally.

Why don't we talk about that more? I feel like this is not common knowledge. 

[00:16:22] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, so I read the book Intimacy Factor by Pia Melody and I like the way that she explains things very simply and is like, okay, this is what we need. We need internal boundaries and external boundaries. It's very like, almost like prescriptive and to the point.

And when I read that, I was like, oh yeah, because we often talk about setting boundaries with people, but I think that we kind of look at it as like it's a panacea. Don't always know that it's the thing that's going to help all scenarios, but if we look at it as like, we have an internal sense of self and then a relational sense of self and we can set the boundaries for both of these, that it feels like that there's some nuances that we can create.

Yeah. 

[00:17:01] Paige Bond, LMFT: Okay. I will have to read that book. I know Pia Melody is often recommended by like Terry Reel and his gang, so it's on my very long list. Yeah, I'd love to hear maybe some examples of what internal boundaries look like and what external boundaries look like for those respective partners. Like just examples.

Yeah. 

[00:17:21] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Sure, like I like to say internal boundaries are like the commitments that you'll keep to yourself in a way that is how do you internally and emotionally regulate? So if internally it's like the anxiety is feeling really big and it's like, okay, if I'm normally then turn to external factors, try and feel better.

It might actually be like sitting with the experience, taking deep breaths, writing it down, just kind of like inaction, kind of noticing some of like the individuals responses to things. And then externally it might actually be voicing wants and needs. So then it's actually being able to say, This is what I need for myself.

I need five minutes to be able to come back to you. I need to take a bit of a space. I'm going for a walk. I'm going to call my mom and then call you back. Like those types of things that can create. Okay. I need a bit of separation because I'm so in your emotional realm right now. 

[00:18:16] Paige Bond, LMFT: Awesome. I love those.

Good strategies. Is there anything else to say more about like attachment strategies and how people are using them? It sounds like eventually to get the connection, but the way they go about it usually is more insecure. 

[00:18:30] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I think the reasons why we use these strategies, so like the EFT model has that infinity loop that really does a great job at showing a depiction of this.

And how our core emotions are, let's say, for the one who pursues, that it's, I'm really creating closeness. I really want that sense of closeness. It may stem from feeling abandoned earlier on in life. It may stem from feeling left or feeling like I need people to care about me. And then the other partner who may feel more of a withdrawal may actually feel like, okay, I actually need a sense of self because I felt like so in mesh with other people, or I felt so overwhelmed by other people's emotional experiences that this is the way that I regulate.

So to have these strategies and say like, what's the generous interpretation as to what those needs are under these strategies. 

[00:19:24] Paige Bond, LMFT: Now I don't know if you've found this in your work, but I find more often than not, people don't really know what their needs are. So is that something you see, and if so, how do you help them actually, like, explore that?

[00:19:37] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I see that too, yeah. It can be challenging, because needs will change over time. What we once needed may not be what we need now. But I think that often using the model of Kind of like the inner child type work because we can create a visual of what we might have needed at five years old and like, it's like a sense of time and space.

So that space of what we might have needed at a younger age can help us identify some of the needs that we're trying to get met now and sometimes we're in ourselves and we're in this. Like, Hey, what do I need today? And it's like, I don't know. I'm just trying to get through it. Then it can feel a bit more daunting.

So I kind of like to use more of a, what is your 12 year old self need? What did your 20 year old self need? What did you need at that point in time? They may not have gotten that. Now you're seeking at this point in life. 

[00:20:28] Paige Bond, LMFT: I really love that model because it sounds like you can connect to, like, what's being triggered in this moment and how might it feel similar to an experience in the past.

If we can find that, that's how you can find the need that's missing. Okay. Very cool. And there's something also that you wanted to talk about was, like, how to be more creative in creating passionate relationships, romantic or otherwise. So can you speak to that a little bit more? 

[00:20:53] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, I think we're very much in our own silos today, and the idea of it takes a village is this sort of slogan, but how do we actually live it in a world where, you know, we don't have to go to a grocery store anymore, we don't have to see people in a day if we don't want to.

It's a choice more than a necessity anymore. So I think that it's putting a lot of pressure on couples. We're trying to find our soulmate, our person, and we're swiping for soulmates. We're putting a lot of pressure on the romantic ideals and to really maybe create different types of love, like the Greek words of love of like the philia kind of love or the pragmatic kind of love.

It might be more of a business like kind of mentality or like the philia, then it's more like a family. Like there's different like friendship kind of love. I think that it's really being able to diversify the way we relate and how we can find love in other areas outside of our romantic relationship.

[00:21:53] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah. That is way too common. It's so much pressure to also be like in that space of like, Hey, it's just us two if we're like a monogamous couple. And it's like. Man, that's a lot of time energy and you're balancing all the other things that come with life And so I also see that friendship can like friend support can be lacking a lot in certain partners that I'm seeing So how is it that you would recommend they go about like creating and cultivating these deeper connections?

outside of their core partner 

[00:22:26] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I like to use this analogy of who's your board of directors, who do you go to when you need business advice, who do you go to when you're having this hard time with your mom and you want someone to talk about it that might not be a partner, who do you go to when you want some empathy around a hard conversation you have with a friend?

Like, I think that kind of having our board of directors is key. And who we might go to for different wants and needs in our lives can be a helpful kind of analogy to have more fulfilling relationships. I 

[00:23:00] Paige Bond, LMFT: think that's so cool. I love the board of directors analogy. And I think you're so on point there.

Like, I know, I don't always have the same person for like all of the plethora of things that I'm working on or stressed out about or needing support with, like, there's different people who may do like quote better jobs at giving like certain kinds of support. So I like that mindset a lot. Yeah. 

[00:23:22] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Even as therapists, like if we could imagine just like one person coming to us for everything and how exhausting that could be.

And it's like, okay, we need other people like to help us out with this. Or, you know, even if we think about our partners or it's like, I don't need to talk to you. about your fantasy football league, please go talk to somebody else about that. Yes. 

[00:23:41] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yes. And that's the great thing about friends and family and otherwise.

I hope you're enjoying this episode.

I want to take a moment to invite you to sign up for my free attachment dynamics workshop. We'll have partners use this as a foundation before we get started in relationship therapy. By watching this, you'll learn how to recognize negative communication patterns, understand how power dynamics show up in conflict, And, most importantly, discover ways to turn conflict into opportunities for deeper emotional connection.

And the best part? This is free for you. Make sure to head to paigebond.com or hit the link in the show notes to access it for free. Now let's get back to the episode. 

So I know we were talking a little bit before we started recording about monogamy and non monogamy. And so one thing that I wanted to like address is like, what can maybe monogamous partners or couples learn from non monogamy as it relates to actually deepening intimate connections?

This is a question that I've been playing around with and I have sort of half baked ideas around, but I think that the idea of we don't own our partners, that we can have other types of relational, romantic kinds of love, that if someone wants to be able to explore that.

[00:25:04] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: It's like, we can rely on others, we can say that my sexual needs may not be being met here, and can we create a structure where we both have our needs met? And there's a lot more creativity and communication that goes into these kinds of dynamics. I think that couples in general could use more creativity and a bit more, like, relational dynamics outside of their personal relationship with each other.

So I think that there are ways where non monogamous relationship can influence how couples work and see themselves in their own relational dynamic. I wholeheartedly agree. That excites me. I'm kind of like tainted and pissed off because I was really interested in a training recently and they were talking about attachment and how it doesn't support non monogamy and I'm like, one, where are you reading that?

[00:25:59] Paige Bond, LMFT: Like, where do you get your research from? And two, we also haven't done enough research on non monogamous relationships because we're a really biased society and we choose to stick with the hetero, monogamous, norm, freaking white people. Like, we don't have enough research on diverse populations. That's my soapbox that I'm going to cool off of, and I won't go down that rabbit hole.

[00:26:21] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I mean, we could go there. I mean, if you look at ancient texts, too, things like polygamy, it's in the Bible. I mean, these things aren't new. So they've been around for a while. It's just that over time, culture and society will say what's acceptable versus not acceptable. And now that we're in a time where we have more information, knowledge, and options, Why not explore how else it could be?

[00:26:47] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I think we're all just really opening our eyes, or maybe like lifting the veil that we had over our eyes for all this time. Because like you said, it's been around for a while. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Like, nothing is like so one way. I like that you're one of the more open mindsets and you understand how dynamic relationships can be.

[00:27:09] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I think we're just dipping our toe in the water of how it could be, yet, like how you mentioned that training. It's like when we think of, Oh yeah, this is now becoming more normalized. And if you're on dating apps, you will often see people who will have ethical non monogamy on their profile. And when there's a train that says like, Oh, this doesn't support this theory.

It's like, Oh, I thought we were. So much further, but maybe we're not, then we get kind of reminded as to, oh, wait, maybe it's not there just yet. Yeah. Well, I was talking about this with someone else just before you and I started recording on how even in grad school, we're trained as therapists, honestly, we're trained from More so the hetero monogamous model anyways.

[00:27:52] Paige Bond, LMFT: I don't know about your training in grad school, but we didn't really talk about other types of dynamics outside of monogamy. So even just like being shipped out from our schools, we're not ready for this kind of difference in the world from these small world views that we were trained in. Absolutely. I had a therapist say to me once she was making the analogy to like a yoga teacher training.

[00:28:14] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: She was like, grad school is like your 200 hour. But then anything you do outside of that is your specialty. And like, you get to explore that and make it your own, but it's basically like, here's the basics and then go and figure out what it is that you enjoy. The great thing is that there's tons of options.

The overwhelming thing is that there's tons of options. There's the pro, there's the con. Yup, exactly. Well, I wanted to talk about you having this, like, relationship anxiety group, because I think oftentimes we don't, like, touch on that penetrating our relationships and causing a lot of discourse. And so, like, I was on your website and I saw that you do, like, a relational anxiety group.

[00:28:54] Paige Bond, LMFT: So can you talk about what that is and what you do in it? So this is actually a new group I'm starting October 1st, and it's born out of having conversations with friends, with clients, with people in my life around having relational anxiety and what some of the common things are is that I'm the one who keeps all together.

[00:29:15] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I'm very responsible. for the mental, emotional, physical labors around the house. I'm very much the independent one. I don't get to express my wants and needs as easily as those around me. I'm the peacekeeper. I'm the one who tries and makes sure that everyone else is okay, even if that means putting myself last.

But I think that the level of anxiety that we have around our relationship and trying to help people create those internal and external boundaries to help feel at ease is an imperative skill that we just haven't, again, kind of haven't been taught throughout the course of our lives. So it's how to relate in a way that both true to ourselves.

And with ease and confidence with others. Oh, I like that tagline. It's so good. Yeah, I see that so much. The more anxious partner is usually the one who also feel like the problem but like are carrying the weight of the relationship on their shoulders. So I'm so glad that you're doing this group. I wish that I found it many years ago when this was something that I was struggling with.

[00:30:15] Paige Bond, LMFT: I'm wondering, with the more anxious partners that you work with and that you see, are there certain themes outside of, like, just what you know about, like, their relational strategies or family history, but are there any other themes that you see? Like, are they workaholics or are they, like, yeah, so I'm curious what you do.

[00:30:35] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: Yeah, so you're definitely hitting on some things that I'm also passionate about in terms of, like, our addictive patterns that can be outside of, like, substance use addictions, but yeah, they are. Absolutely the high achievers. They are the ones who will outwork anybody. They might be perfectionistic. They have it all together.

They're the ones who people will go to for just about anything because they're super reliable. So I think that they often feel a relational weight from so many people or very many different dynamics in their lives because they're like, yeah, I can do it. I got it all. I am good. You can come to me for it.

Anything. And I think that's also saying from like a very independent culture that we live into, but yeah, and it gets reinforced over time. The part that you said about like the one being the reliable person that everyone always goes to because they are reliable and I just thought in my head of, well, for everyone else but themselves.

Yes. Can you talk about that? Absolutely. And I think it's a good through to saying it, everything gets attributed, but it's like they, compassion is only universal if you include yourself. So you do have to include yourself when you're thinking about how kind you are, how compassionate you are, how understanding you are to other people, but can you be understanding to yourself and maybe even make that more of a priority?

[00:31:51] Paige Bond, LMFT: Yeah, I think too often they are de prioritizing. Well, because they're prioritizing everyone else's needs. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, theirs become more on the back burner. Yep. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to speak on regarding attachment, intimacy, cultivating relationships, things like that?

Gosh, I think we covered a lot of ground today, so I think, yeah, I think we're good, or I'm good. Any more that you want to cover, anything? I asked what I wanted to about your relational anxiety group. I wish more, like, this was available in more places. I don't really see that happening very often. Yeah. I will say I like group.

[00:32:32] Brittani Pocknow, LCSW: I mean, think about like the relational aspects. I like group dynamics because you get to mirror what it is that you want to create in your personal life and a group of people who are there for the same reasons, similar mission, similar backgrounds or like things that they're struggling in to really have that little empathy with one another.

So that is something about group work that I learned in like the addiction space that I was like, I wish that there was more spaces. Like this, like in addiction, it's AA or other places. What about like people who are just looking to connect in a way that is like, I'm struggling with my relationships or my workaholism or my perfectionism.

Where do I go? Yes. Well, there is your tech startup app idea right there. Yeah. I will invest. Wonderful. Thank you. Well, let's wind down here, but as we do, can you tell people, like, where to find you, what else you have going on? Sure. So, I have a website. It is at bprocnow. com. You'll find my newsletter. I write a weekly newsletter with some sort of insights or things that I'm just perusing on.

And the relational anxiety group is happening October 1st. If you're in the Raleigh area, I'll be hosting an igniting intimacy couples workshop December 7th. Awesome. So, yeah. Cool. And last thing, I don't do this every episode, but I do it if I remember. Do you have like, maybe a song that you're jamming to lately, or a book that you would recommend, or an audiobook that you've been diving into that the audience might appreciate?

Yeah, one that I actually really enjoyed reading was the book called Adultery by Paula Kaleo. It's a book about a woman in Sweden and her kind of journey with an affair. And it's an interesting read because it's very philosophical as well as a great story to read. Ooh, I love that. Thank you for that rec.

Yeah, of course. All right, listeners, I will make sure to have all the links. to check out Britney and all of the cool offerings that she's got in the show notes. So check those out, click the links, sign up for the newsletter, sign up for the group if you're in North Carolina. And with that being said, we'll catch you on the next episode.

[00:34:52] Paige Bond, LMFT: And that's a wrap for today's episode of Stubborn Love. I hope you gathered some wisdom. Them to bring into your love life and improve your relationships. If you enjoy today's chat, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. That'll help this episode reach even more listeners. If you have any questions or stories you would like me to cover in the future episodes, drop me a message I love hearing from you.

If you need extra support in your relationships, check out how we might be able to work together by hopping on my website at PaigeBond.com Until next time. Don't let being stubborn keep you from secure love. Catch you in the next episode.