How to Support a Partner Coming Out as Trans
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Show Notes
Dr. Gary Bischoff from Western Michigan University shares valuable insights from his research and provides resources for therapists and couples with transgender partners.
This episode touches on World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) standards of care, the impact of transitioning on relationships, the importance of mutual decision-making, and the challenges cisgender partners may face.
05:30 Challenges in Trans Relationships
11:39 Counseling Trans Individuals and Couples
32:21 Support Systems and Resources for Trans Partners
35:50 Impact of Transition on Sexual Relationships
Gary H. Bischof, Ph.D., is a Professor at Western Michigan University in the Department of Counselor Education and Counseling Psychology. Dr. Bischof is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) in Michigan.
Dr. Bischof has published over 25 peer-reviewed journal articles and 14 chapters in edited books. Topics have included families of juvenile sex offenders, couple therapy, clinical supervision, integrating religion and spirituality in therapy, brief solution-oriented therapy, the integration of family therapy and medicine and most recently couples with at least one transgender partner.
Important Links
Queerly Beloved: A Love Story Across Genders by Diane Anderson-Minshall, Jacob Anderson-Minshall: https://bookshop.org/p/books/queerly-beloved-a-love-story-across-genders-diane-anderson-minshall/12424647?ean=9781626390621
Connect with Paige Bond
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Website: https://paigebond.com
Paige Bond specializes in helping individuals, couples, and intentionally non-monogamous partnerships feel grounded, confident, and connected in their love life. She is also the founder of Sweet Love Counseling providing therapy in CO, FL, SC, and VT. Paige loves educating people about relationships through being the host of the Stubborn Love podcast, hosting workshops, and speaking at conferences.
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Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.
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Transcript
(generated by AI - please excuse errors)
[00:00:55] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Stubborn Love. I'm your host Paige Bond and today we have a very special guest who I actually met at a marriage and family counseling conference. we actually attended each other's sessions and I thought, this guest was so cool that I wanted to invite them on the show and Talk a little bit more about this topic. So today we have Dr. Gary Bischoff from Western Michigan University.
We're going to be talking today about all the ins and outs about trans relationships. Thank you so much for being here on the show today, I really appreciate it. Can you tell listeners a little bit more about you and your journey of specializing in couples relationships, and especially trans relationships.
Dr. Gary Bischoff's Background and Research
[00:01:44] Gary Bischof: Sure. Glad to be with you, Paige. And yeah, good seeing you again after meeting at the conference. Um, yes, my name's Dr. Gary Bischoff. Uh, I'm a professor at Western Michigan University,
been there for about 25 years. My training is as a, uh, couple and family therapist, have both my degrees, uh, from, uh, AMFT accredited programs. My master's from Virginia Tech and my doctorate degree from Purdue University. So I originally got into this area looking at couples with a transgender partner um, after doing some panels in some of my courses, uh, and met some various uh, Trans individuals who stayed in their relationships through the transition.
So they were couples who were together already. And then one of the partners began the process of transitioning and kind of coming to terms with their gender identity. Um, and so I got kind of intrigued with this, uh, that piece because, originally I thought, wow, this would be a kind of a deal breaker, um, you know, that couples would probably go their separate ways, uh, as one came to terms with their gender identity and that being different than what they you know, originally were.
Um, so I got intrigued with this and, uh, began, uh, doing some research. Um, part of the research I did was, uh, looking at cases from the book Head Over Heels, which By Virginia Earhart, um, and that book involves about 30 cases, about half of them, uh, were couples who were together, uh, and this was all the the wife's, uh, perspective, um, uh, so about half of those cases, so I had a, a team of, uh, students and we analyzed those cases qualitatively and developed uh, some themes from that.
Um, later I, uh, initiated the study where we did some interviews with couples uh, that fit that profile. Um, some of the couples were, uh, got together after the transitioning. Uh, a good number of them were together and then, you know, stayed together through the transitioning process. Um, and so we did interviews with them.
We had them fill out a survey initially. Uh, and then we did an individual interview with each partner. And then we analyzed some of that data. Uh, and then, uh, interview the couple together. Uh, so that was a nice opportunity to have a couple different points of, uh, hearing from them. And so we also have done some analysis on that, uh, so those are a couple of the scholarly pieces I've done, uh, and, uh, have been able to, um, uh, publish a couple articles too in one of our Michigan journals called the Michigan Family Review.
And it's interesting, the first article that I had published, uh, on this area, that was from the Head Over Heels study, um, it was one of the, the most, um, downloaded, uh, Articles in the journal. And so at their 10 year anniversary, they requested folks who had, you know, were authors of the most downloaded ones to do an update.
So I had an opportunity to work with some different students, including one trans man as part of our, you know, co authors. And so we did an update of that. So, so that was kind of a fun to be invited to, you know, to do that project. After all that, I was on sabbatical a few years ago, uh, and, um, I had been in some administrative roles and then kind of came back to faculty.
So I used the sabbatical to launch more into the scholarship and writing in this area. And from that sabbatical, I developed a one credit course on transgender couple issues and strengths. And just taught that a couple weeks ago for the third time. I've been teaching that each spring. And the students really appreciate the topic because they don't get a lot of stuff on trans.
Um, We're pretty diverse. Uh, we emphasize diversity in our department and, you know, I think we do pretty well focusing on issues related to, uh, gay individuals, lesbian individuals, a little bit bisexual, but not a whole lot with trans. Uh, so people really appreciated a chance to learn more about that. And then particularly, you know, with the focus that I have on looking at the couple relationship, you know, as I got into the literature, really saw that a lot of the early literature was really focused on the trans individual.
Challenges and Insights in Trans Relationships
[00:05:30] Gary Bischof: Uh, and their developmental sense there, you know, kind of coming to terms with and transitioning, uh, really wasn't a whole lot out there on on how that transition affects a partner. Um, and so that intrigued me as a couple of family therapist was, you know, really kind of diving into that.
[00:05:47] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, and that's what drew me to your presentation so much, is that you were focused on the couple relationship, so whatever partners were involved in that relationship, and I'm actually really curious how the, uh, diversity, equity, and inclusion is at university, because I Great.
I don't know how things are for, for you up there. They sound a lot better than they are here in Florida. Um, they're trying to eradicate anything that has to do with diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so I was kind of curious how you've seen that, uh, develop over time. And even how now this is the third time you've taught this course specific to, um, you know, a couple relationship with one or more partners who has, um, You know, identified as trans, you know, can you kind of speak to that a little bit?
[00:06:32] Gary Bischof: Sure. Uh, one little anecdote, uh, when I was getting ready to go to Florida to do the presentation that I did, um, that you saw, uh, my wife was a little concerned.
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Academia
[00:06:51] Gary Bischof: She said, you know, that's not a very, that may not be a very popular topic down there in Florida. I was afraid I might have some woke police come, you know, and, uh, uh, protest outside, but nothing, nothing like that happened.
Uh, fortunately in Michigan at this time, um, we're, uh, we have a democratic governor who's in the second term, uh, and the, both the house and the Senate had been Republican for a good while um, but the last election, those turned democratic. So it's been interesting to see, uh, some of the initiatives that, you know, with a democratic governor and a democratic house and senate.
Uh, so for example, one of the pieces of legislation that they've passed recently is, is banning conversion therapy. Um, so yeah, that was a big effort and there's been a lot of other ones that have to do with, uh, you know, protecting, you know, Um, reproductive rights, uh, protecting rights of, uh, gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans individuals.
Um, so we're in a good spot, I think, right now. And, uh, it's interesting, we have a couple, our dean, our current dean, came from Florida. And then our current interim chair also came from Florida and both talked about, you know, both are kind of committed to doing diversity work and we're pleased to be in a different environment where, you know, we didn't have the state government trying to police things along those lines.
And I would say, you know, We're in, uh, Kalamazoo, Michigan. Our university is, um, the western part of Michigan, um, has been, uh, populated by people from the Dutch Reformed Church. Kalamazoo, being a university town, is a little bit more liberal, I would say. And as I mentioned, our, our department in particular is very committed to diversity, equity, inclusion.
We have a very diverse faculty. We have some, uh, openly gay lesbian faculty members. Uh, and so, you know, the, the department overall is committed to doing scholarship in the area of, uh, of diversity. So. Um, I've never gotten any pushback about, you know, doing this kind of work, uh, and nobody questioning the scholarship in the area.
It's just, it just sort of fits within our mission of, you know, training, um, you know, culturally competent, uh, and diversely competent, uh, uh, counselors and counselor educators and counseling psychologists.
[00:08:49] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: It sounds like a really wonderfully affirming environment to be able to, um, you know, even if you're part of the marginalized population, you've got support to be working on that social justice initiatives for you.
So it sounds like a really great environment. Yeah, it's been a good supportive environment that way. And, you know, faculty members are encouraged to, you know, pursue their interests. We're not a high, high tier research that, you know, only you can do work that's going to be funded you know, by federal grants and whatnot.
So, uh, it's been a nice environment that way too, where personal interests, scholars, scholarly interests are, uh, supported and valued. Yeah. Now you said you created the One Credit Couples course focused on, um, trans partners because you saw a need for it. You, you didn't really see that as a big part of the education core system.
Can you tell listeners a little bit about, uh, What's really missing when counselors are getting educated as far as diversity and what was so important to you that you were like, I got to create this and I got to start educating more people on this topic?
[00:10:00] Gary Bischof: Well, as I would do some brief presentations and lectures in my classes, uh, people, you know, students would say, well, we don't get much on trans, uh, individuals.
Um, so that was some of the impetus. Uh, we also have in our curriculum, a one credit elective. Um, and, uh, the chair at that time was supportive of faculty developing some one credit courses within our department. Um, cause a lot of students were taking them outside. Uh, so it was a nice opportunity to. Kind of meet a couple needs, you know, uh, in, in the curriculum, uh, also a need, you know, with a lack of attention to that.
Um, I think with, with trans folks, uh, you know, and, and students learning about, uh, them and the process and all, um, it has been sort of a, a lack and it's been very eye opening, uh, for, uh, for students. Uh, one of the things I have, uh, the students do in that, uh, one credit class. It's just a weekend kind of weekend workshop format.
So prior to that weekend, I have them read a book called Queerly Beloved. Uh, and it's the story of, uh, a lesbian couple, uh, and then one of the partners, uh, transitions to male, uh, and it, it goes back and forth where one chapter is from one partner, one chapter is from the other partner, uh, and so you, it's a good inside view of one couple's journey, uh, through that transition process.
Um, so students have really appreciated reading that and kind of getting into the material on it. Uh, you know, just this one. I taught it the last time. Wow. I dreamed some of the stuff. I didn't realize that, you know, the impact of hormones, for example, on the body, the skin, you know, the, uh, you know, various other kinds of things.
And just, you know, kind of really seeing it from inside of a couple's view. Uh, so that's been a good way to kind of get into the topic.
Counseling Trans Individuals and Couples
[00:11:43] Gary Bischof: And then we use that case some throughout the weekend as we're applying some of the different concepts and ideas, excuse me, ideas to that.
[00:11:46] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, and that's got me wondering you know, since we think about Counselors in training and they're not getting enough of this type of education to be able to help, um, quite, quite a large population out there that really may need our help with whatever issues they may be going through.
What do you think most counselors get wrong when it comes to counseling one or more partners who are affected by um, you know, transitioning and that they don't have the, the counselor skills that maybe they should, and it's not going as well. So what do you, what do you think could be helped out there that most counselors are actually not doing right?
[00:12:26] Gary Bischof: Yeah, I, I think one of the challenges of working with a marginalized group that sometimes people don't have a lot of training, uh, on, uh, is that, um, the, the counselors, the therapists are a little over reliant on the clients to help them learn about what it means to be trans, what it means to transition.
Um, so, so that's a, I think, a key piece. So, and that's something I emphasize in, in the class is that, you know, this is just an introduction to some of these ideas. But if you're going to be working with this population, you need to, you know, kind of keep up with the, the literature, um, you know, continue learning about what the kind of struggles there are, uh, for various populations.
And as we just talked about, those can differ quite a bit depending on what community you're in, what state you're in, um, Uh, we know that, you know, these past couple years, we've seen a lot of backlash against trans people, against trans youth, with, you know, lots of conservative states putting up legislation that restricts, uh, Uh, rights that restricts, you know, uh, medical providers from giving care to trans youth, etc.
So that's one thing I would say. Um, I think sometimes people come into the, you know, working with a trans person and not understand that, um, people transition in a variety of ways. Some might just, you know, it might be about their presentation, their dress, they may not choose initially or even ever to do hormone replacement therapy.
Other people do that. Um, you know, others may do, uh, top surgery, but not bottom surgery. So there's quite a bit of variety. So assuming that, okay, you know, somebody's trans, that they're going full blown into all the medical and surgical procedures, you know, to transition is, is, you know, not, not accurate. Um, those are a couple things off the top of my head.
I may, some more may come to me in a moment here as you prod me with other questions.
[00:14:17] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Thank you for going into that and, and I think you're spot on on, uh, how the counselors can sometimes be reliant on the client to be educating the counselor themselves rather than the counselor going out and doing what they need to do to become, you know, uh, just more well versed in working with that population.
I see that oftentimes. Um, just being a counselor who specializes in non monogamy, they'll have people that they've seen. They go to therapists and therapists aren't really sure how to really navigate the relationships for them. And they feel like there are the ones who were teaching their therapist about their lifestyle that may not even actually have anything to do with what they even came into counseling for.
[00:14:57] Gary Bischof: Right, right. Yeah, that's, that's another really good point. Um, because, you know, I think another assumption that sometimes gets in the way is assuming that they're there because of the trans issues. Um, and that may be a part of that. And, you know, if you're working with a couple that's in the midst of that or contemplating that, uh, that is probably a major thing because that's a, a huge transition that impacts both partners.
So, yeah, that's a good point that we have to be careful about assuming that as well. As you're talking, I was remembering the case from the book Queerly Beloved, too. You know, one of the things that happens in that book is that the cisgender partner is very supportive of the trans partner and almost sort of takes over.
She was kind of the more dominant personality in the relationship and almost kind of took over the transition process. But also had some, um, you know, other thoughts and feelings that she didn't share, uh, with her partner, uh, because she didn't want to, you know, dampen the enthusiasm of the transition. Um, so one of the things we talked about in class was, you know, knowing that, uh, and seeing that play out in that couple, you know, at that those early stages, it's, it's important to make room for a range of.
Uh, feelings and thoughts that both partners may be having, but particularly the cisgender partner, that it's okay to have some misgivings. That's a natural kind of thing. Um, and to, you know, create room for that and not assume that that means that the cisgender partner is not supportive. Uh, but just they, they're working through it too.
Um, one of the things we see often for trans individuals, there's an internal process where they're kind of coming out to themselves, coming to terms with their gender. Now some people are, from very early on, very clear that, you know, I'm born in the wrong body, there's significant dysphoria, and really a strong identity and desire, you know, to be, uh, other than their natal gender.
Um, but, yeah, so, I lost my train of thought a little bit there. No, you're good. Um, just how it can be very different. Uh, you know, on the coming out process, whether it's, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's important to know that, uh, then you might create room for, you know, Hey, it's great. You're really supportive here.
You know, are there other parts of you that are, uh, you know, having some challenges with this, you know, some, uh, one curiosities, wonderings about how this all is going to work out. Yeah. Um, so that's an important thing to be able to, and the couple in the book, it's interesting. Um, they did not do couple therapy.
Um, and so, you know, I have the class think some about, you know, if this couple came to couple therapy at different stages of, of their, uh, transitioning and their development, you know, how might that have been different?
[00:17:28] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, and you know, as you say this, I do start to wonder, are there anything in particular else that counselors should know when working with one or more partners who are going through the process of transitioning that maybe they don't really know about or they haven't educated themselves on yet?
[00:17:50] Gary Bischof: Yeah, I'd say one of the things that I talk about in the class that most people are not familiar with are the WPATH standards of care, and that's the World Professionals for Transgender Health. It used to be called the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, after Harry Benjamin, who was a key physician who kind of coined the term transsexual early on.
Uh, did a lot of treatment of, of transsexuals and, and developed some of the early standards of care. So people aren't familiar with that. Um, and your, your listeners may or may not be aware that, uh, a new version of the PATH standards of care came out just, uh, in the last couple of years. They're up to version eight now.
Um, and so that's a good, important resource because part of what counselors get involved in. Uh, is, uh, doing things like, uh, being the therapist or the counselor to be able to sign off on and vouch for the person's gender dysphoria so that they might seek treatment. Um, so, for example, in Michigan here, one of the main, uh, centers for sexual health, Uh, is in, at the University of Michigan, uh, and they require, um, two letters from mental health professionals, um, uh, so that's a little bit more stringent than the WPATH standards currently are, um, so that's, you know, that's an important area to know about, uh, is, you know, what's involved in those letters, what's involved in an assessment, you know, to be able to support the trans person's, uh, uh, efforts at transitioning.
Um, so that's a whole piece that people generally aren't very familiar with at all, the WPAS standards. And those are important if you're going to work in this area to become familiar with. Um, they're more detailed than they had been in the past. They also created some, uh, some new chapters this year, separating out children and adolescents.
Uh, and, uh, And the, um, citations and the references in that are also very strong and that's one of the places, uh, I think I mentioned this in the, in the workshop I did, you know, down in Florida, um, that, um, no, I just lost my train of thought. One of the workshops down in Florida. Yeah. As far as, uh, WPATH standards or.
Yeah. I lost it. Maybe it'll come back. Sorry. We'll find it. Maybe. Um,
[00:19:36] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: I did have a question about you know, as far as, uh, being either on the client side and trying to seek a therapist that will write a letter, um, what needs to go into that letter? And are, are trans folks safe, you know, talking about anything and everything, like, can anything be used against them, um, in, in those letters?
So I would really like to maybe see if we can look from the client's point of view, um, what that process looks like.
[00:20:02] Gary Bischof: Yeah, so, um, The WPATH standards are pretty clear about what needs to go in a letter, and a lot of it's fairly straightforward things like, um, you know, how long has the mental health professional worked with the person, you know, how long, how many sessions, um, a key part is, uh, some, uh, information on diagnosis, uh, and again, what they're really looking for there is, uh, gender dysphoria and symptoms associated with that.
Um, one of the things that, you know, has been in the standards for a long time and why there is some importance of mental health, uh, screening, uh, and assessment, uh, is that they want to assure that the person is not wanting to do this just because of some perceived benefits of being the other gender.
But there's actual gender dysphoria, a clear desire and kind of identity as their, uh, other than natal gender. Um, so yeah, the letters, you know, kind of straightforward, you know, how long they've seen them, what kind of assessments have been done, uh, diagnostic information, um, you know, those sorts of things.
So the person then can take that, you know, at a place where they are required. Uh, and have that be, uh, you know, supportive of their, um, efforts at transitioning.
[00:21:08] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Are there ever any times where they're, they're working with a therapist to try to get that letter, yet the therapist may not write it for some reason?
[00:21:18] Gary Bischof: I suppose that could happen, you know, if based on their assessment, the, uh, the mental health professional is not seeing, uh, gender dysphoria, uh, or maybe has some, uh, you know, Doubts or curiosities about whether, you know, this is, uh, um, you know, actually appropriate for the person. One of the things that's important to screen out, too, as a mental health professional, is are there other, you know, significant mental health issues, uh, that are going on?
Um, depression, you know, psychosis, you know, are there other things that are going on that may make it difficult for the person to, you know, consent to and really understand, you know, what all is going on? Uh, so that's another piece or one of the reasons maybe, uh, you know, and they might recommend that a person get treatment for that mental health issue, uh, before, uh, you know, uh, pursuing, uh, transitioning.
[00:22:05] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: I suppose that makes sense if someone is under, you know, severe amount of duress or, uh, even in, uh, Uh, a state of psychosis. It could be really hard to actually know what is reality and maybe what internally you're, you're truly seeking. So I guess that makes sense. Um, kind of switching. Oh, go ahead.
[00:22:23] Gary Bischof: Well, just because I, following up on that, um, another thing that's, you know, true in, as you look at the history of trans individuals, um, they often do have some significant mental health challenges.
Um, Um, substance abuse, uh, rates are a little higher, uh, and suicidal ideation is higher. Now, some might look at that and say, well, that's because trans people, you know, are not well, they're, you know, trying to this and that. Uh, that's not true, of course, and, and a, a key factor why people experience that, like, uh, gay and lesbian individuals, is we live in a heterosexist, Um, you know, uh, homophobic, you know, kind of, uh, an anti trans, especially recently.
Um, and so, people are struggling with that, you know, their identities and living in a world where they don't seem to fit. Uh, that's more the source of stress, uh, so it's societal things, not necessarily something's wrong with them inherently because they identify as transgender. So that's an important thing to, to be aware of too.
[00:23:15] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, I just really wonder what the world could look like for these more marginalized populations and what would happen to you know, the disparity of mental health issues of, you know, someone who is trans versus straight, cisgender, uh, like white male you know, who, who may not experience, uh, so, so heavy of a mental health issue that's someone who is trans or part of the LGBTQ community, right?
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[00:24:25] Gary Bischof: Yes. Yeah. And as a family therapist, you know, you have to think about too, That, um, coming out to parents, uh, can be, can risk relationships. Um, and, you know, one of the things that's important if you work with trans youth is to help them kind of appreciate and understand what are the potential responses by a family.
Because sometimes they're ostracized from the family. They're kicked out of the family home. Um, and then they're forced to find a place to live and, you know, that certainly creates some more vulnerability. Thank you. Uh, depending on whether they have a stable and reliable place to stay. So, you know, there could be a lot of challenges involved with, you know, some of the history where, uh, families are, are not, uh, supportive.
[00:25:07] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. Um, I want to switch gears back to the couple relationship and You know, you were able to really study a variety of different types of relationships at different points of time, whether, you know, the couple got together after someone transitioned, it was during a transition or even before. So I would really like to maybe see if we can talk about what exactly Would you say, like, are the best case scenarios for a couple's relationship surviving?
And what are the worst case scenarios where it may be on the fritz or heading towards ending of the relationship?
[00:25:45] Gary Bischof: Yeah, that's a good question. That's something I talk quite a bit about in the class and some of the part of my readings. Um, so I think the ideal situation, so the early phase, um, you know, there's, there can be discovery where the cisgender partner discovers it, um, and sometimes finds that the other person has been hiding something for a while.
Uh, so one of the examples, uh, in, from one of the, Uh, interview, uh, interviews we did was that, uh, um, that the trans man, uh, was a a natal male long distance truck driver, uh, and so took, um, uh, clothes, uh, along, uh, you know, and I think I'm getting mixed up. Yeah, it was a, who took female clothes, uh, and the, uh, the partner found them in the garage in a duffel bag.
Um, and so, you know, what's this? Uh, so that was more of a discovery kind of thing where there was felt like there was some deception, um, as opposed to, um, the, the transgender partner, uh, revealing or disclosing what's been going on. Um, so I think ideally it's, it's better if the, uh, trans partner discloses Uh, you know, at some point has that conversation.
A lot of times, uh, partners are not terribly surprised. They maybe have seen some signs. Sometimes trans folks, you know, drop some clues here and there, uh, drop some hints. Um, so that's an important phase is how the, how does the gender partner find out about it? Is, is it involved more with discovering and some sense of deception for a while?
So that makes, I think, that process more traumatic when that occurs. I think one of the, one of the challenges for couples is, um, for the trans partner, often this is something they've been pursuing, identifying with for a long time, and they're finally feeling like, wow, I can now embody what, you know, I always felt my gender was.
And so there's a lot of enthusiasm, they're ready to go for it, uh, and if it's not something that's been discussed or even the cisgender partner's been aware of, you know, how do they get on board with that. Uh, so you have one partner, the trans partner, ready to jump into this and ready to go for it, and the cisgender partner kind of, you know, stepping back and saying, whoa.
I need to get used to this idea. I don't know if I'm ready to be public as a, you know, a different looking couple than we are now. Um, so I think that, that's a key, uh, part of the relationship, is, is being able to honor the, the trans, uh, partner's, uh, desire and steps, uh, to transition, while also taking into consideration the, the partner's, uh, perspective, uh, and, and one of the things I think that's, that often is kind of a deal breaker, Is ideally, uh, you know, those transitional steps need to be negotiated by the couple.
Um, so what is not very helpful and what probably would lead more towards couples going their separate ways is unilateral decisions about coming out as trans. Uh, so if a person comes out at church, comes out at work and they haven't, you know, had some agreement with their partner about the timing of that, how they were going to do that.
Um, that can lead to a sense of betrayal, you know, kind of lack of trust, um, the the cisgender partner feeling like, you know, I don't have any control. You're just doing this on your own. Uh, so that's a key part. I think that that, uh, uh, that phase. The other thing I would say that's really important for the trans partner, again, even though they are very excited about, you know, these next steps, is to really appreciate the emotional pieces, the thinking that their partner's doing, and be sensitive to that.
Uh, so that can be challenging because, hey, I'm ready to do this, uh, but really appreciating, you know, what one's partner is going through. And that may mean, you know, delaying a little bit some of those steps, uh, delaying being out in public about it. Uh, until both partners, you know, feel like they're ready to do that, um, and that can be a challenge because, you know, the cisgender partner may be reluctant, uh, for longer periods of time than the trans person would like, um, and so, you know, those are those kind of phases I think where couple therapy could be helpful, you know, to help them think through these things, uh, work through them, you know, get an outside perspective.
So those are a few things I think that are really important, um, you know, that can make a difference between whether the couple might stay together or go their separate ways.
[00:29:50] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. Thank you for touching on each of those. I really appreciate it. And it gets me wondering, you know, it sounds like the main part of this is just making sure you're making decisions.
Like for the relationship as a whole, rather than doing what you feel like doing, even though like, that's great that, that you're, you're becoming more authentic to yourself and you're coming into yourself, um, there could still be some challenges if you just do what you want rather than talk about it together with your partner.
[00:30:20] Gary Bischof: Mm hmm. Yes, yes. Yeah, one of the things that sometimes comes up in the literature is, um, that when a cisgender partner might be hesitant, uh, you know, to pursue some of these things, because they're, you know, again, the trans person may have done a lot of this internal work, you know, prior to this, and now the cisgender partner has to sort of catch up with some of that.
Um, I think it's wrong to assume that the cisgender partner is transphobic when they're hesitant. Um, because sometimes they may get labeled that by other you know, advocates or people in the trans community. Um, but, you know, laying those kind of labels on on, you know, one's partner is generally not very helpful.
And some of that natural hesitancy about adjusting to a major transition, I think is normal and we need to normalize that and not not assume that that's a transphobia. It could be, you know, it could be transphobic and there could be elements of that, but I think we need to be careful not to label that, um, sort of natural, uh, hesitancy sometimes, uh, as, as being transphobic.
[00:31:18] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, thank you for touching on that because I think it can, we can easily, you know, get out our pitchforks and start you know, making a muck of things and assuming a story that may not even actually be true. And I see this a lot in non monogamous relationships when we change the structure from monogamous to non monogamous that you know, people think that the, the person who's struggling going into non monogamy just, just isn't approving, just has a bias or whatever.
And it's more of that adjustment period. Like things are different. You're literally changing the structure of the intricacies of your relationship. So I like how you say that. Just slow your hold before we start throwing labels out and let's just take a look at what's happening. What, what's the process going on here and, and maybe what support we might be able to identify is needed for that person who is really struggling with that adjustment.
[00:32:17] Gary Bischof: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So No, I think that's, that's well said, yeah. Yeah.
Support Systems and Resources for Trans Partners
[00:32:21] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: So what kind of support, you know, for instance, we'll go along with this scenario, for the person who is a bit more hesitant, um, and struggling with the adjustment, what kind of support can we give them, whether it's coming from the counselor or from the trans partner themselves?
[00:32:36] Gary Bischof: Well, I, I think several things. Uh, one is, uh, to offer, um, books, uh, first person accounts. Um, you know, there, and there are a growing number of those out there. Um, one of the, uh, books that I've, uh, come into contact with recently, there's a, a workbook for, uh, the partners of transgender people. Um, and so I actually was given a copy by our local, uh, Gay and Lesbian Resource Center.
Uh, and they have been doing more, uh, with some trans support groups of, of, of partners and spouses of people who are transitioning. Thank you. Um, so that's a good resource. And that's a relatively recent one. Um, and it has a lot of worksheets in it. Um, it would be a good kind of thing to have as kind of a companion in doing a group, a support group of some kind, where people would kind of do these exercises over time.
And there's lots of different topics in there that. You know, address, um, particularly, again, from the, the, uh, cisgender partner's, uh, perspective. Um, you know, reading books, I think, is a, a great thing. You know, so the book I mentioned, Queerly Beloved, uh, that workbook also identifies, I haven't seen that, this book yet, but, uh, another book that, about a couple who, you know, navigates the transitioning process.
You know, there are a lot of good support groups online, uh, PFLAG you know, is a good resource in general for LGBTQ+ uh, you know, supports and for family members and partners, um, and there are some different conferences that people might go to, uh, things like Southern Comfort or Tri S. Uh, and some of the profiles that I've read you know, are you know, a way for the, uh, the partner, the supportive partner, the non trans partner, is to go to some of those.
Just learn about, you know, what it means, what, what's all this transgender stuff mean. Um. Um. You know, how does it work for couples to stay together and actually getting to meet other couples who have navigated this? You know, one of the things I hear from couples is, uh, you know, working through this, uh, and doing it in a good, uh, collaborative kind of way can strengthen the relationship.
Um, uh, and, you know, because they've, they've had to go through some tough issues and face some things, um, so they can actually strengthen the relationship. Uh, so that's an important thing, you know, to keep in mind, uh, as well. So, yeah, lots of different supports, I think, certainly with the internet and online stuff, uh, more and more stuff, you know, is available.
Yeah. And, you know, linking up with one's local, uh, gay and lesbian resource center, that's often a, a good strategy. So as I mentioned you know, our, our local one just in the last, you know, a couple of years have, uh, developed some more support groups for, uh, again, partners of trans folks.
[00:34:56] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: That's great. And I, I think a very necessary resource because it can often feel like we're going through this process alone and that maybe no one else understands.
So being able to have that kind of community of other people literally going through the same thing or maybe already have and they're you know, just a seasoned person in the group who's giving you know, maybe their insight or good advice. I think that's so important. Um, impactful, um, and, and thank you for speaking on those resources.
So I really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, is there anything else, uh, speaking either for couples therapists listening to this podcast episode or partners who, um, have a loved one who is transitioning or who is the one transitioning through anything else that you would say to speak to them, to be able to strengthen their relationship?
Or make the relationship work if they're maybe struggling going through this.
Impact of Transition on Sexual Relationships
[00:35:50] Gary Bischof: Yeah, I think one area that we haven't touched on that uh, you know, I've, I've, uh, included in some of my research and you know, is, is the impact on the sexual relationship of the couple. Um, and that can be challenging, um, uh, for several reasons.
You know, one of the early factors is you know, that the cisgender partner is struggling with, what does this mean that you know, I was with a person who you know, really intended to be a man or a woman and that was different, you know, so their own, Uh, sexual orientation sometimes may be questioned, uh, and that can be very challenging.
Um, you know, I've been straight. I've been attracted to guys. Now my partner is transitioning to female. What does that mean for our, our sexual relationship? I've, you know, what, how's that going to go? Um, and, and so I think that's an area that needs to be addressed too. Um, and, you know, and there's a wide variety of ways that that happens.
Um, one of the things to consider is. You know, how does one's, um, natal genitalia play into the current couple sexual relationship? Some trans individuals don't want any contact with anything that's associated with their, you know, previous, uh, gender. Other people may be okay with that. Um, One of the things I have seen, particularly from the Head Over Heels, uh, book, and, and also some other, uh, stuff that I've read, is that for a lot of couples who navigate this, the sexual part of the relationship takes less prominence.
Because of some of the I think the changes because of some of the initial attractions, um, you know, they sometimes don't have sex nearly as much as they used to, uh, and it's just not as it kind of reminds me of kind of an aging couple. That, you know, maybe because of, you know, illnesses or various things there, there, the sex part is just not as prominent in the relationship.
Now that's just for, for some. I'd say the other thing that, that is important to consider is the role of hormones on, uh, sexual desire, uh, sexual drive, those kind of things. So it's fairly common for, uh, Um, for people who are taking, uh, testosterone, uh, to, uh, increase their drive, uh, and so what might have been one scenario in a couple where one partner was more of the initiator, the testosterone and the, you know, kind of identity as being male, uh, might increase that person's drive.
And now they're the higher drive partner. So that really changes the relational dynamics around initiating sex, you know, desiring sex. And again, bodies change, you know, skin thickens, you know, with testosterone. People feel differently. So I think this is an important area to You know, for, uh, therapists or counselors to be aware of and to be able to broach and talk with a couple about is, you know, how how's your sexuality going?
How's your physical affection going? You know, as as part of everything that's happening with all this, um, And to again, recognize the importance and the impact of, uh, you know, the hormones, uh, I've, I've appreciated more of the nature things, having worked in this area, uh, being a parent also, uh, has helped me appreciate.
I was much more of a nurture person before. Um, and, and still, you know, as a relationship therapist, I still hold that, but I've appreciated having two daughters with very different temperaments kind of coming out of the womb, you know, the role of temperament and personality. And then in this area, you're really appreciating the role of hormones.
Um, and how those may change people's, uh, styles, personality a little bit, maybe a little bit more argumentative, aggressive when they're, you know, taking, uh, testosterone. Um, so I think it's really important to appreciate, you know, some of the impact of, uh, of those medical, uh, treatments and hormone, uh, replacement therapy.
[00:39:26] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: I really appreciate you going into and highlighting those different dynamics that can show up when we start changing, you know, things either through medical, um, you know, uh, ways or even through just kind of taking inventory of our own sexuality and making meaning of what this means for our relationship.
So thanks for going into all of that. I appreciate it.
[00:39:48] Gary Bischof: Yeah. Let me add one other thing on that because this is something I've heard from multiple couples. It is. You know, often couples in this situation, I think, who are effective at staying together kind of shift from, I don't see myself as straight. I don't see myself as gay.
I don't want to put myself in a category. My attraction is to my partner. So it becomes more of an individual attraction to that person, not to a class of people necessarily. Uh, and so that's the way I think, you know, is an adjustment for the cisgender partner and in part from the transgender partner kind of making that attraction a more individual thing rather than putting themselves in a class or putting a label on it.
So I've heard many people talk about that who have navigated pretty well, you know, the transition process.
[00:40:37] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, and I really appreciate that viewpoint on it, because I think sexuality can be so unique and can be very unique, depending on the person, depending on the attraction to a specific person. And so I think that that is such a beautiful way of putting it rather than putting yourself in this box of, Oh, well, I identify as straight, so I can't, you know, love my partner who is ....
You know, so I, I think that's, you know, a really winning scenario to have that kind of mindset. Um,
[00:41:05] Gary Bischof: yeah. And that, that was probably one of the surprising things. I didn't go into this research thinking that that would be the case. Um, but yeah, that, that is, uh, a relatively common way that people describe their kind of changing, you know, sense of attraction and orientation.
Very cool.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
[00:41:22] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Well, thank you so much for speaking on this very important topic, um, especially from, you know, having your research background and speaking to the counselor's point of view, but also speaking for the trans individual or the, the partner of someone who is transitioning. So I really appreciate all that you've shared with us today.
Um, is there anything else that you would like to let listeners know of, um, either any resources or any upcoming projects you have going on?
[00:41:50] Gary Bischof: No, I don't think necessarily anything, but I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate you, you know, taking the initiative to say, Hey, would you mind, you know, doing this podcast?
So, um, yeah, I appreciate you doing that. And the good work you do, um, you know, looking at, uh, you know, consensual non monogamy, another area that can be kind of complicating and, um, but we see out there quite a bit. Uh, so I was intrigued with your topic and that's why I went and attended your workshop on that too.
So appreciate the good work you're doing in that area as well.
[00:42:19] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. I just love when we get like two fans of each other in the same room or even virtual rooms. So yeah, this has been great. And, um, I'm glad you had the time. Uh, and, and I got the opportunity to be able to talk to talk with you because I know academia can really be a very busy time for professors and researchers.
So I appreciate it.
[00:42:39] Gary Bischof: Oh, no problem. Happy to do it.
[00:42:41] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: All right, listeners. Well, I will make sure to have, um, some links in the show notes about WPATH. Um, I know you mentioned the conferences as well, and so we'll have, uh, those links there if anybody wants to check those out, PFLAG resources, things like that, and until next time, thanks so much for listening.
And that's a wrap for today's episode of Stubborn Love. I hope you gathered some wisdom to bring into your love life and improve your relationships. If you enjoyed today's chat, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.
That'll help this episode reach even more listeners. If you have any questions or stories you would like me to cover in the future episodes, drop me a message. I love hearing from you. If you need extra support in your relationships, check out how we might be able to work together by popping on my website at paigebond.Com. Until next time, don't let being stubborn keep you from secure love. Catch you in the next episode.
