Intentional short-term relationships - Are flings in and long term commitments out?

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Show Notes

In this episode, author of poetry and philosophy Anthony David Vernon dives deep into the topic of short-term relationships. Anthony and Paige explore the value of taboo topics, the importance of passion in relationships, and how short-term flings can provide rich experiences without the constraints of long-term commitments. 

01:58 Exploring Taboo Topics and Short Term Relationships

05:01 Monogamy vs. Polyamory: Societal Norms and Personal Choices

14:05 Self-Love vs. Self-Care

17:38 Promoting Self-Care and Addressing Misdiagnoses

22:26 The Neo-Victorian Age of Relationships

24:25 Ideal Candidates for Short Term Relationships

28:09 Transitioning Between Short and Long Term Relationships

30:05 The Role of Sex in Relationships

Connect with Anthony David Vernon

Anthony David Vernon is a Cuban-American literary writer who earned his master's degree in philosophy at the University of New Mexico and the writer of Flings on Flings published by gnOme Books. This hybrid work focuses on the idea that love should be equated with the fling as opposed to any forever understandings of love.

https://medium.com/@antmanvernon305

https://www.chillsubs.com/user/antmanvernon305

Connect with Paige Bond

Instagram: @paigebondcoaching

Facebook: @paigebondcoaching

TikTok: @paigebondcoaching

Website: https://paigebond.com

Paige Bond is an open relationship coach who specializes in helping individuals, couples, and intentionally non-monogamous relationships with feeling insecure in their relationships. She is also the founder of⁠ ⁠Sweet Love Counseling⁠⁠ providing therapy in CO, FL, SC, and VT. Paige loves educating people about relationships through being the host of⁠ ⁠the Stubborn Love podcast, ⁠⁠hosting workshops, and speaking at conferences.

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Free People Pleasing Workbook: 

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Disclaimer: This podcast and communication through our email are not meant to serve as professional advice or therapy. If you are in need of mental health support, you are encouraged to connect with a licensed mental health professional to receive the support needed.

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Intro music by Coma-Media on ⁠⁠pixabay.com⁠

 

Transcript

(generated by AI - please excuse errors)

[00:00:00] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Welcome to the Stubborn Love Podcast. I'm your host Paige Bond. I'm a Gottman and attachment trained, solution focused, marriage and family therapist. I specialize in helping folks design and build their dream relationships through structured therapy and resources. And also use modalities that go beyond traditional talk therapy, like accelerated resolution therapy and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

School didn't teach us how to be good at love, so I created the Stubborn Love Podcast to help you navigate it. Every episode has actionable tips that will help you create a happier, healthier, and more fulfilling life with the people you love. Join me on this journey of love and learning for the stuff they didn't teach you in relationship school.

I hope you enjoy this episode. Now let's get ready to rock and roll. Welcome back to another episode of Stubborn Love Today. I'm your host, Paige Bond, and we have a really special guest on this episode today. We're going to be talking about short term relationships. So, Anthony, I don't think I can do you a justice of a good introduction, so can you introduce yourself and tell listeners a little bit more about you, and then we'll dive into more on the topic of short term relationships.

[00:01:21] Anthony Vernon, Author: I mean, I don't know if I can do myself justice either, but just to keep it quick, I am a author mainly of poetry and philosophy, and you can find my stuff with a Google search of my full name, Anthony David Ferdin, and maybe you'll run into something you like. Maybe you read something you disagree with, but that's, uh, basically a good summary of what I do.

I write a lot and I overthink. 

[00:01:45] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, and so you were already telling me before we started recording that you kind of write about taboo topics. So one of them, you said your first book was about death. Today we're here to talk about short term relationships. Before we even dive into these things, what caught your attention about really talking about these more taboo topics?

Thanks. 

[00:02:06] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think what caught my attention is that a lot of the topics that are The most taboo, I think say the most about people and society and culture at large, you know, what says the most is what's not said quite often, or, you know, the assumptions, the most common assumptions, right? So it's like, Oh, like we, you know, have to think this way about death.

We have to think this way about love. We have to think this way about government. So when you. Look into those other fringe topics. There's also a lot to be said there. There's also a lot more to be uncovered. Because the topic is taboo, there's also a lot to explore. So I think There's kind of a real treasure trove of reasons why people should dive into taboo topics, you know, in all sorts of backgrounds, fields, et cetera.

[00:02:55] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Mm hmm. I agree. I love taboo. I think it's so much fun just like diving into these and learning more about things that either may not even be related to me, but I'm just exploring the topic itself and just gaining new perspectives of people or just trying to find something else and expand my own life.

So. In particular, short term relationships, where did this kind of get sparked for you, this idea of short term relationships? 

[00:03:23] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think focusing on short term relationships as the place where love resides, as opposed to the long term relationship. I think really came from a manner in which I live. I try to live in a very sort of, you know, going into one thing, going into the next, going into one thing, going into the next.

I live in a very passionate sort of means. And, you know, I realized in examining myself and others, the time period in which they love anything they get into the most, you know, whether it be, you know, a new video game or, you know, whether they're trying out DJing for the first time, no matter where it may be the love.

It's really in those initial, uh, phases for the most part. And, you know, having that sort of feeling that you had at the beginning of something towards the end of something is where, you know, love is found. But most of the time love is found in like really brief sort of period. And then people lose interest.

So it's sort of that feeling of passion for me where I saw love reside as opposed to any sort of long term contractual commitments. 

[00:04:27] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. And when you talk about the idea of short term relationships, I'm often like brought to the idea of the relationship escalator and how not everybody has to follow these same societal norms that we have expectations for or, you know, of the relationship.

Getting married and having the kid and having these types of commitments, we can step off that escalator and, and still experience very fulfilling and deep experiences of love, even though it may not be what society tells you it is. 

[00:05:00] Anthony Vernon, Author: Yeah. I like to write that people aren't albatrosses. Albatrosses are amongst the most monogamous animals in the animal kingdom.

And it's not that people can't be monogamous. There are certainly benefits to being monogamous. A monogamous society or a monogamous relationship, but at the same time, people aren't wired in the same way as albatrosses. The majority of our species history is not a, you know, monogamous history. And so it creates these conflicts in people where, from a society and sociological standpoint, you could look at these, you know, benefits in terms of maintaining peace and order and stability, but at the same time, from a personal emotional level, it can be very damaging for many people who don't fit in that sort of structure, who can't make themselves a fit in that structure.

And again, there's nothing even wrong with, you know, being, you know, polyamorous for a time, or, you know, being a player for a time and then moving into monogamy. But then there's also many, you know, cultures and groups and, you know, religious organizations that are just even against that sort of understanding of even transitioning into monogamy, figuring out what you like to work into monogamy.

So I think. That sort of thing is also valid. So I'm not trying to be out here and be like, aha, we should only have short term relationships. I think rather it's best to explore the fling as sort of an option and a really good option for many, as opposed to using it like a bludgeon in the same way that heterosexual monogamy has been used as a bludgeon in many cases.

[00:06:35] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, I really appreciate that outlook because, as you may know, I specialize in working with people navigating non monogamous relationships, and so And a lot of what I think people get confused on is that like, I'm over here waving a flag saying that everybody should be non monogamous and that's not necessarily the case.

I'm just trying to be that voice uplifting that this isn't. And so you mentioned flings and you mentioned having a book, Flings on Flings. Can you say a little bit more about like what that was about? 

[00:07:06] Anthony Vernon, Author: Well, the fling for me is the romantic example of where love can be found. You know, when you fling yourself into something, right?

Obviously the fling both refers to, at least in English, to the idea of a short term relationship, but also throwing yourself into something. The most passionate mountain hiker is the starter mountain hiker. And only are we able to maintain our love for something if we're able to continuously fling ourselves into it, continuously throw ourselves into it.

I mean, the best marriages are those where there's a constant fling. There's a renewal, a revival. And I think this as a basis for love is better than a contractual understanding of love from a emotional standpoint, because I think a lot of people treat relationships like contracts rather than as flings of passion, which, you know, I think that mixes up ideas and understandings.

Love becomes this very large thing. The Greeks have so many terms for love. It just becomes so, I think, Bothersome to even navigate, you know, between them navigating between Eros and the Gapé. And so I think also part of it was reducing the definition of love to, you know, a similarity, a form of passion, you know, because I think there's too many muddled up definitions of love.

So I think that was also a big part of the project is also just kind of. Giving a middle finger to the Greeks and being like, no, no, no, too many, too many definitions. No, stop, stop, stop. 

[00:08:36] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, it can get a little complicated having so many different variations describing one thing, but it's really big thing.

Love is huge and really hard to describe, I think, and put into words. One thing that, that gets me thinking for like relationships to work, you know, Love is not enough. I like to spew that idea everywhere and I do think of relationships as a contract, right? You can kind of like exit at any time and love isn't gonna be the only thing keeping you in there And so I kind of want to go back and forth on this idea about the, the contract of where do you think people get it wrong when it comes to love as a contract and staying in a relationship as a contract?

[00:09:23] Anthony Vernon, Author: Well, I think it goes back to something you just said, which I disagree with that. You can't have a relationship solely based upon love what you, of course you can have a relationship solely based on passion. And I think it can be actually a healthy relationship. I think this is. A made problem where it's like, Oh, you know, you can't sustain passion.

It's going to burn out. Okay. Candles burn out, lots of things burn out rather than creating structures in which a burnout is a bad thing, right? Because you burn out the contract, you know, it's okay to have structures and with a burnout is okay and not going to be damaging, like, no worries. We put the candle around the lake, you know, like it will be fine.

We're not going to burn anything. So I think that's where the problem. Lies where I think people often get into contracts where a better relationship dynamic for them would have been something else. You know, if people get into longer engagements, then they should have. I like to use the term that people write contracts with rose colored lenses, right?

That you write the contract often when you're in. The, the flame and that's not the time to write a contract. A contract with, you know, in a relationship for a cent should be made when, you know, you have care and companionship for the other, right? It's going to be about your own, like, Oh, what does this person do for me?

Right? Like a true love and companionship and care have one structure in common the other, but they're a very different type of thing. Understanding towards that other, right? Once a passionate understanding for the other, once a caring understanding for the other, once a companionship understanding for the other, and, you know, it's, and that's another thing I think too many people are very self motivated in.

Relational dynamics. And they're very disattached from the needs, understandings, desires, et cetera, et cetera, of the other. So this is where contracts go wrong. When a contract is made for one's like self benefit, they're like, ah, what am I getting out of this deal? It's like, no, it's not what you're getting out of this deal.

It's about what you're giving out of these sorts of engagements. 

[00:11:29] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, I mean, I think that's really fair to say and I do agree with you on the fact that Not all relationships are meant to be long term Like maybe a relationship that you're entering into is one that you explore and discover like a lot of things about yourself But you know, that's not a long term person that you would want to wake up to every day And that's okay that that's not that relationship for you.

There's no I like to say there's no right way to do relationships I mean We change and evolve so many times over our lifetime, it would be unfair to expect, you know, just this one thing, and this is why I really like to bolster the idea of non monogamy as a choice for people. You know, as you learn more about yourself, your sexuality can change, the way you love people can change, and that would be really unfair to not explore that, because then you would be living a life where you could be unfulfilled. 

[00:12:25] Anthony Vernon, Author: Yeah, and I think, I'm not sure if it's even about, uh, self fulfillment, I mean, that doesn't hurt, but I think the issue, in large part, is that we're not focused upon the fulfillment of, like, others, right? Like, so much of modern society is very social media based. And it's very much about the promotion of oneself, accentuating oneself, fulfilling oneself.

And I think we've lost a lot of appreciation for, you know, otherness, for difference. It's very easy, despite having access to global understandings, to, uh, streamline ourselves into an algorithmic form of thinking and to promote one, uh, corner of the world as the greatest corner of the world to ever exist, where I think people have lost appreciation for things outside of their realm of comfort.

And understanding, you know, there, there seems to be less of a desire to go anywhere too far, despite having more travel access than ever, not to say that people don't do it and there aren't van life people that like, you know, Japan abuse who, you know, don't like, you know, obsess over living in Japan, but it's just to say that, you know, if we look overall, I mean, people are more and more, I think showing themselves in.

And I think it's because of this. really bad inflation of, you know, love as an act of self fulfillment rather than as other appreciation and as other passion. 

[00:13:49] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: What do you think, you know, could be changed to help with that mindset? Like earlier education, like what should people be diving into and learning about to know this other alternative?

[00:14:05] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think The other alternative is to finally realize that self love is an absolute disease. Um, it is a really nauseous idea upon society because what it does. Is that when you go about self love, you create an other version of yourself, right? You create the sort of ideal of yourself that you put your love and you put your care into this sort of narcissistic sort of figure that you create that is not you, but is a representation of you.

And you, and you love that and you put your energy into that. And yes, of course, it's part of you, but what it does, it turns oneself into an other. And. Takes away all that love energy that you could have had for others and puts it not even into yourself, but into a sort of figure, an idea of yourself. So I think that's the thing that really needs to be called out is that we need to stop promoting self love as a good idea, because there are so many, at least to me, easy argumentations of why self love is a harm to people and why the promotion of self love is quite damaging, especially given that it's like one of the biggest things promoted through social media, right?

Through the, the biggest age of self love promotion through social media, we just see depression rates going higher and higher and higher because people don't have an appreciation. For anything, right? They lose their appreciation for their actual selves because they're too busy trying to appreciate this thing to self love, but that's just an image.

And then they've lost all exterior appreciation of just, you know, things beyond their, I guess, kind of ego trap to put it in complex terms. 

[00:15:44] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. Is there a replacement? 

[00:15:47] Anthony Vernon, Author: For self love? Yeah, I think it's self care. I think the problem is, is people aren't well attuned to their actual needs. While I think the Stoics are quite bro y and obnoxious in any way, especially that like, good guy who got a business degree that tells you to read Marcus Aurelius.

Nonetheless, I They're really good at promoting the notion of like self examination and self inspection and looking at one's actual self or where they are, what they are, what they need to attend to, because it's very easy to. very much be like, ah, I love myself, therefore I do not need to change myself.

This is something, you know, Zizek kind of points to in an opposite sort of way where it's like, is it love if you want to, you know, absolutely like change the other, you know, so there's these two kind of conflicting, you know, ideas. It's like, oh, I have self love and I don't need to change. And that's created a problem.

Or I have self love and I need to completely change to become this other image and people kind of lie in those extremes of self love rather than actually examining themselves, who they are for their strengths, their weaknesses, et cetera, and see how they can accentuate different aspects of their true self that they want to bring about rather than be like, Oh, I love myself, so I should be, you know, more like this person or, you know, I love myself, so I don't need to change at all.

There's nothing I need to accentuate. There's nothing I need to, you know, work on. 

[00:17:12] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, I think that brings up a good point of, as people, there's always things to work on and there's nothing wrong with that. That's actually a really good and positive thing to grow and learn more about yourself and learn how to love yourself more.

So you brought up the aspect of self care. Can you speak on how you view self care, what it is, and how we can really promote that within ourselves? 

[00:17:38] Anthony Vernon, Author: In order to promote self care, there needs to be an honesty, and I think one of the things that, and I say this as a lefty individual myself, that, you know, a correct push towards political correctness, you know, should definitely put you everyone in the limelight and be attentive to everyone's needs and not be hateful towards others.

But simultaneously, there are certain forms of political correctness that don't allow for any examination of sort of problematic tendencies. My go to example is self diagnosis on TikTok. There are way too many individuals right now who are self diagnosing with Autism, for example. Why do I speak to autism?

I'm not a diagnostician in autism by many, by any means, but both my mother and my sister are speech pathologists, and there are too many people that do not have any medical background who are just saying, Oh, I'm autistic. I'm this, I'm that without the proper ability to do so. And, you know, given current political correctness that, you know, It can't be called out properly in a social sense, right?

Someone who is self caring does not do that. Someone who is self caring needs, would look at their weaknesses properly and be like, Hmm, I'm not a diagnostician. Maybe I shouldn't just go on the internet and say I have autism when I may or may not. Not to completely deny this individual, but you know, one should not make diagnostic claims until they have, Multiple opinions to say the least, not just, you know, their own, Oh, I looked through a bunch of tech talks, so I'm totally this, you may be this.

And it's a good hint. It's good sign, right? Like if you think you have something, you go to a doctor to check, but you know, that becomes a sort of a self love thing, then they'd be, then they create these tech talk pages are all about like self love for autism. And while this image may be true, you can't really know for sure what, but what truly has been created is this other image, the.

And this is going to sound weird out of context, but the autistic form of this TikToker, you know, become the image, the thing to be loved, as opposed to one's actual self that needs to be taken care of that may have, you know, a mild communicative disorder that's not being properly addressed because the individual has jumped all the way into autism, or, you know, the individual may have a speech impediment, as opposed to others.

You know, to Asperger's. So I think, you know, this is, I guess the example I like to use, and it is a, I think a real life example of the note difference between self love and self care, because self love I think is sort of, you know, creating an idea where self care, you know, points to actual. Features of reality and not that images of self-love aren't based on nothing, but more often than not, they're, you know, they're based upon things that people want to be as opposed to things that people actually are.

[00:20:37] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: I wanted to take a quick break from this episode to make sure you knew about this. If jealousy has ever crept in your relationships and left you feeling overwhelmed or out of control, I have just the thing for you. My Calm the Chaos Jealousy Workbook. It's packed with strategies to help you manage and transform jealousy into a force for growth and connection.

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And I think people often forget when we go through mental health diagnoses. I mean, I'm a trained clinician and we have this big ass book that we have to go through of what the diagnosis is, all the criteria for it.

And then underneath all that are what's called differential diagnosis. So making sure that we are ruling out all of these other possibilities that this could be. So I think people Oftentimes don't go through that process of rolling out these other things and then it could be that they're going through with, you know, thinking and believing they might have a diagnosis when they could actually be something else.

Yeah, the DSM 

[00:21:58] Anthony Vernon, Author: is not an easy read. You don't, you don't go about the DSM as like casual reading. It's not your, it's not your cafe book by Hanimi. 

[00:22:06] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Definitely not. It is your graduate school book. But. 

[00:22:10] Anthony Vernon, Author: Yeah, and I think, you know, this has moved a little bit away from short term relationship, but I think this is an important distinction because I think one is better able to be a participant that is there for someone other than themselves if they have a better sense of self care.

I think In the age of self love that we're seeing now, we're also seeing less people get into romantic relationships despite more transportational access and apps like Tinder and Bumble, you know, giving very easy access to meeting people that are more like you. All the tools are there. To be in a, you know, a neo sexual revolution, but we're finding ourselves in a Victorian age somehow, despite all these technological advantages.

Yes. In the United States, there's current issues with birth control. They're getting in the way of that. Yes, we are post sexually transmitted diseases that did not exist during the sexual revolution, but we have an education system that could very easily, you know, explain to individuals how to prevent STIs.

I, my ex girlfriend was a, she taught sex education in public schools and it's not material that's ungraspable to middle schoolers, to high schoolers. And it's the type of stuff where you can very easily prevent a lot of sexually transmitted diseases, everything from pubic lice to, you know, gonorrhea, et cetera.

So it's just to say that, you know, despite, you know, some mild disadvantages, there's more. Advantages in favor of having a neo sexual revolution, but we're kind of in the neo Victorian age where everyone is showing themselves off, but no one's doing anything about it. The numbers show less people are getting into relationships.

Less people are having sex. Despite babies, less babies, despite all these ideas, despite polyamory becoming more popular, despite Tinder, you know, being in the atmosphere, despite religiosity going down, it's a very strange phenomenon. And I really think. There's this factor that's not being connected to, which is the increase of depression and understandings of self love, or the thing that I was getting in the way of people fucking.

It sucks. We need more fucking. 

[00:24:20] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. I mean, when you're depressed or when you're anxious, who is in the mood, right? I want to go back to thinking about, like, who is the ideal fit for a short term relationship? You know, if I'm someone. Navigating the relationship sphere, and I'm kind of having this idea of, Ooh, a short term relationship's good for me.

Like, what would be the signs to know? No, 

[00:24:45] Anthony Vernon, Author: that's a good question. But I think the best sign is someone who has a natural aptitude for passion. And I think that exists outside of necessarily, you know, sexual feelings or romantic feelings, right? If you're someone that You know, quickly passionate about X, Y, and Z.

If you're someone that's always constantly picking up new hobbies, short term relationships may be for you. And this is not to treat people as hobbies. It's just to say that, like, if you're someone that, you know, has hobbies and you put a lot of care time and dedication into that hobby, then you could possibly be the type person that could put, you know, dedication and care and time into another person.

Again, it's not a one for one it's imperfect, but. It certainly is a best possible sign that I can think of on the spot. 

[00:25:32] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. Is there like a timeline for how short these short term relationships are compared to long term ones or it's arbitrary? I 

[00:25:40] Anthony Vernon, Author: mean, I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. I think short is any relationship that's pre contractual, right?

So the moment That two parties come together and decide, Hey, we need to set terms on this relationship. Right. And obviously these aren't physically written out contracts. Of course. I mean, you know, most of the time it's just like you're having pillow talk and you're like, Hey, like, are you seeing other people?

No. Are you seeing other people? No. Like, do we want to just see each other, you know, stuff like that. Like when that starts like coming up, boom, it's over. Right. That's when the short is over. So short is not inherent period of time. It's more of a, I guess, a before term they're set type thing. So a short could be five years of short.

I mean, that might sound insane, but I guess, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you know, dinosaurs and big bang and all that jazz five years, ain't that much to go off of. 

[00:26:34] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, compared to all the years that they could be together. Yeah, that's 

[00:26:39] Anthony Vernon, Author: true too. Yeah. 

[00:26:39] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. I like how you explain that, that there's not necessarily a number, but it's about maybe like the status of the relationship more so.

Yeah. What are some signs maybe that someone would not be a good fit for short term relationships? 

[00:26:54] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think a really good sign in the Snipetons strange is someone who never wants to leave their hometown. Tell me 

[00:27:00] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: more about that. 

[00:27:01] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think because it shows attachment, commitment, care, you know, and compassion for a locality.

And, you know, a lot of what we do in long term relationships is very settled. So if you're a settled person, like I found my corner of the world, and this is the only corner, and this is the best corner, and I only want this corner, then Then it shows settled tendencies. You need, and it's good for that person to find someone who wants to settle with them, who wants those routines with them, who wants, you know, a lot, a lot of the same, and that's, I'm not against a lot of the same for others that would be against my whole philosophy, but it's just more to say that, like, for me, I'm someone who's very, I know myself well, I'm like, I need this thing.

I need this thing. I need to, you know, for other people, they don't need much. And that is amazing. If they do not need much for themselves. And that's the person who should be going after a long term relationship. But that person goes after a short term relationship, they're going to be thrown off left, right, center.

Like why this person into this? Why is this person into this? I don't like this. I don't vibe with this. Why do they want to be here? I just want to be here. So, you know. 

[00:28:07] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm also wondering, like, about the transition, maybe, from short term relationship into a long term one, or vice versa.

Like, do you have any advice or recommendations for people going through that transition period, from one to the other? I 

[00:28:25] Anthony Vernon, Author: can't tell you. I can't speak from personal experience by any means. I can only speak from philosophical experience in a weird way. There's a quote I really like from Nietzsche where most of marriages are about conversations.

That the thing you do the most in a marriage is conversate. So a really good sign of figuring out if you're transitioning or not. Is freaking out in your relationships. If you're starting to appreciate conversation more and more, you know, I think for me, the relationships I've lasted the longest are the ones that I have the best conversations in, as opposed to anything else.

If I'm able to, you know, speak with another person in really deep and insightful terms and, or just really goofy terms, cause those are my two modes. I got no in betweens. So, so if I'm able to eat really goofy or really, you know, Deep with an individual, at least for me, that's the type of conversation that clicks now for everyone.

It doesn't have to be deep or, you know, goofy conversations, you know, for some people, if you have this, you know, this really neutral passion for a lot of the same interests, or you have just a way that clicks, even though you're not into the same things. So yeah, I think that's the best way to transition is notice how you're conversating with your partner, partners, et cetera.

[00:29:39] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. Hmm. This has been action packed. You've gone over so much in such a short amount of time. That's how I try 

[00:29:46] Anthony Vernon, Author: to write. So if you read any of my writing, it's, it's a lot and a little. That's, that's how I try to, I'm a flingy person in, in my writing also. 

[00:29:54] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: I like it. You exude that in all aspects of your life.

Are there particular things that we haven't talked about yet when it comes to short term relationships, flings, et cetera? 

[00:30:05] Anthony Vernon, Author: I think one thing that has been dodged, speaking of taboos, is sex. I think that's a big thing that's been dodged. And, You know, it's very easy to be philosophical about love and avoid sex, but really it's a really important aspect to all of it.

Now, I personally am not someone who is a one night stand person. It's not like it's never happened for me before, but it's at the same time, it's just not my go to. It feels very seducery and it feels weird to me. Like I think of one night stands in a very seduction sort of way. When you're Going about a one night stand, you know, you're not appreciating the other for what they are.

They become an object. And it's nothing wrong with that. I'm not anti objective. In there, there are some scenarios where it's awful, but you know, and I think most cases, but you know, mild objectification where consenting everyone's cool with it. It's in small settings. It's not like spread on mass, you know, go, go ham.

We all do it. So I think that's, you know, something that's easy to overlook that, you know, that this idea that like, You know, love is either super tied to sex or not tied at all. I think it's better to view sex as an activity within a relationship that for some people can be really, really important. I mean, you know, some people like, you know, having good sex is going to change their entire dynamic, going to change their entire, you know, passion for somebody else where other people, it's a nice thing to have, but it's not enough.

And, you know, obviously we have to account for asexual relationships where, what does this matter? You know, what, what does the sex matter? So I think it's best to view sex as, um, an activity, something you participate in with a partner. More akin to the same way, like you may play video games with a partner or the way you may like to travel with your partner, you know, things that really fill up quality time.

And oddly enough, I think sex can be used to create good room for conversation. Sex puts you in a really intimate setting, you know, the whole pillow talk thing. And I think, I think often sex gets misused. For pleasure in the physical sense, as opposed to a mutual outlet for physical pleasure and I think intimate conversational pleasure in a, in a weird sort of way for many people, not for me, but I think a lot of people find that idea weird with like, you know, like if some people just don't want to talk at all after sex, it's like, all right, we thought we put on Netflix, which I think that, and that's happening more and more to me.

That's like, that's so sad. 

[00:32:36] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Well, I find that. Really interesting and maybe a possibility of, you know, an indication of some sort of insecurity there where they're avoiding that more emotional closeness or like even just thinking about communicating about, Hey, how was our sex? I like this, or please don't do that again.

Like even those basic things even just at least make your sex life even better. Yeah, those conversations aren't really being had that all day. 

[00:33:05] Anthony Vernon, Author: And they're super important. I, and you put it so well, and I mean, you, you took any words I'd want to say about that out of my mouth. 

[00:33:11] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Well, I am a therapist, so I try to make sure everybody gets everything in there.

[00:33:16] Anthony Vernon, Author: And yeah, you know, and that's the thing, I think a lot of, you know, a lot of thoughts on love, oddly enough, overlook psychology in a weird way, despite it being such a psychological phenomenon. And it gets often reduced to almost a. Religious and moral sensibility. And, and I'm not sure if that's where love belongs or if that's a healthy place for love to belong in these sort of moralistic and, um, religious senses.

I mean, you know, I, I get the, the extreme passion for religious, you know, understandings I've, I've done religious studies and I understand, you know, certain people's reverence in for their, uh, higher power, but. But I, I think when that gets kind of equated to, you know, the love that you'd have for a romantic partner, like if that same word is used, I mean, you're clearly, well, once again, going back to mixing up ideas and then this whole idea of, you know, love being like good or bad, or like, you know, you need to have this love and this type of love, I think this, you know, creates the problem where people get tied up into, you know, dynamics that they feel they need to attain.

rather than dynamics that actually fit their self care. 

[00:34:29] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, there's a lot of gray area that I think we don't really acknowledge that can actually be really good for us. For us to explore. Things don't have to be so black and white. 

[00:34:41] Anthony Vernon, Author: Yep. Yeah. Love is not a, it's not, it's not, it's not red or pink. It's, you know, it's a, you know, there's, there's all the, emojis on Apple for a reason.

You got your green hearts, your black hearts, your purple hearts. All that sort of jazz. And that might be a weird metaphor, but it, you know, it's, there's, you know, there's good reason to, you know, think of love also as this very deep thing. Cause while I've tried to use a simplifying definition of love as like passion for the other, that though cap captures a lot of things at once, I've created a simplified definition that turns love into this thing that you point at.

Like you, you don't point at yourself, you point at something other, but there's so many other things, right. You know, And so, you know, it still creates, you know, it still creates this keeping love as a broad thing, which, you know, I, I think simplifying the definition to something, you know, with, with too much restriction, I don't think anyone would have ever attached to.

I think this idea of, you know, making love to super hyper specific thing that just gets thrown out the door. So I think even in my simplification, you still end up with lots of, just lots going on because there shouldn't be a lot going on because I think Passion should be dismissed as it often is, you know, people, passion should get overlooked.

I mean, what are we living for, for not living to be, you know, passionate. 

[00:35:58] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah. I mean, who wants to live maybe a more lifeless or boring life? I mean, And marriage people, but, but I'm trying to think, you know, I, I did just watch, uh, this weekend for the second time, everything, everywhere, all at once. Right.

And there's so many different ways that we can go with our life. And I don't want to boil down relationships to mean that they are boring or unfulfilling. You know, if we just want to be doing taxes and laundry with our partner, cause that's such a beautiful thing too. 

[00:36:30] Anthony Vernon, Author: Oh 

[00:36:30] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: yeah. But also, you know, Is it fulfilling though?

We want to make sure it's fulfilling. I think that's where that passion comes in for you. 

[00:36:39] Anthony Vernon, Author: Yeah. And if, if you're fulfilled by taxes and laundry, amazing. Right. And that's, you know, that's the thing. I think when I made the diss on marriage, it's like, there's too many, there's too many loveless marriages out there, man.

And it makes sense. You get caught up. I mean, you end up in, you know, circumstances, kids, taxes, houses, you know, there's so many things that like tie. You doubt and, and, and it's, and going back to the monogamy is beneficial to which I said earlier for stability and et cetera, you know, the, the countries with the highest rates of, you know, polyamory in the world have very mixed results, but a lot of them are central African countries.

I have a lot of other things going on, which are socioeconomic issues in part due to the, I guess, You know, instability of individuals not being in stable household, but at the same time, when your whole economic structure is centered around having that particular type of, you know, relationship, I think that also creates problems.

I think while the, the, and I'm not saying this as an anti capitalist, more of just a critic of that, when you have a economic system that That, you know, says it has all these freedoms and says it has all these options, but then it gives you like tax credits if you only have specific types of marriages, if it doesn't let you foster kids, if you don't have specific types of relationship, if you, you know, if you, if you don't fit certain social norms, then you're not going to be benefiting as much from the, the economic system.

And so. You know, it, it does, it creates a lot of stability. One girl gets one dude, like that's it, they're stuck. Like that's very stable, but like stability at what cost. And I think, you know, I think there are ways to create societies where you, you know, maintain monogamy. If you want monogamy, polyamory, if you want polyamory, you know, whatever, whatever asexuality, if you want asexuality and make sure people are.

Fine. Our institutions don't have to be entirely based upon marriage between heterosexual men and heterosexual women. To maintain, you know, order. I mean, we've seen this in the very small period of time in the United States that, you know, LGBTQ individuals have been able to get married and it's been fine.

No, no problems, no confusion. No one's like, Oh God, what's this marriage institution? We can't know plenty of, you know, the straightest blondest people from Oklahoma. They're still, they're still getting their marriages. So, 

[00:39:12] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: yeah. It doesn't cause any harm to the other side who already had those privileges.

Well, thank you so much for being a guest today on the show. I'm curious for our listeners who are more intrigued by this topic of short term relationships or talking about these different ways of love and self care, like what projects do you have going on or where can people find you? 

[00:39:35] Anthony Vernon, Author: You know, I rather than I think shouting out myself because I already said that you can find me on Google pretty easily.

I think one of the most influential works, sorry, not works, authors on my work is Emmanuel Levinas. He's very dense, to say the least, and he's not the most accessible, but that's a good source if you're, if you're like, Oh, man, this philosophical stuff was cool. Like, let me get real deep into it. If you're looking, I guess, for, you know, something, I guess, more casual to like, work your way into a lot of the things we talked about today.

The YouTube channel ContraPoint. Love her, love her stuff. Amazing YouTube channel. So if you haven't checked out ContraPoint, not that she needs any more promotion by any means, but yeah, I've even done a lecture for a university lecture on ContraPoint. So yeah, you know, if you're want. You know, same sort of ideas about love, relationships, self love, self understanding.

ContraPoints is an amazing thinker in examining these sorts of ideas. 

[00:40:34] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Very cool. Well, thank you for giving me and those listeners resources like that to kind of expand more upon what you talked about today. I appreciate it. 

[00:40:42] Anthony Vernon, Author: No problem. Have yourself a great, uh, night. 

[00:40:45] Paige Bond, Relationship Expert: Yeah, thank you, Anthony. 

And that's a wrap for today's episode of Stubborn Love.

I hope you gathered some wisdom to bring into your love life and improve your relationships. If you enjoyed today's chat, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. That'll help this episode reach even more listeners. If you have any questions or stories you would like me to cover in the future episodes, drop me a message.

I love hearing from you. If you need extra support in your relationships, check out how we might be able to work together by popping on my website at pagebond. com. Until next time, don't let being stubborn keep you from secure love. Catch you in the next episode.